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⸺ HIP-Archive ⸺ / hip-60-entity-weighted-vote
Tracking/discussion issue: https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/399 - HIP https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/main/0060-entity-weighted-vote.md
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# HIP 60 : One Miner, One Vote - Author(s): cvolkernick - Start Date: 2022-04-28 - Category: Governance - Original HIP PR: https://github.com/helium/HIP/pull/395 - Tracking Issue: https://github.com/helium/HIP/issues/399 - Status: In Discussion # Summary Currently HIP votes are conducted via wallet signatures at heliumvote.com; this proposal suggests further improvement by allowing/constraining a given wallet's voting power to equal the total number of hotspots (unique b58 addresses) in said wallet. # Rendered view https://github.com/helium/HIP/blob/main/0060-one-miner-one-vote.md
HIP 60 : One Miner, One Vote Author(s): @cvolkernick Start Date: 2022-04-28 Category: Governance Original HIP PR: #395 Tracking Issue: this Status: In Discussion Summary Currently HIP votes are con...
Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
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edaatweets pinned a message to this channel. 05/04/2022 2:51 AM
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Deleted User 05/04/2022 3:34 AM
Generally in favour of this because right now the voting system allows anyone to hoover up HNT and swing the vote. How about validators? My suggestion in an earlier discussion was votes per validator = no. of online hotspots / no. of online validators or a variation thereof (edited)
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I respect the effort put in to develop this but the HIP uses a good deal of emotionally charged language to frame the current voting process as bad without explaining the specific technical reason why the change should be made. (edited)
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HG
I respect the effort put in to develop this but the HIP uses a good deal of emotionally charged language to frame the current voting process as bad without explaining the specific technical reason why the change should be made. (edited)
Doesn't really help that the submitter got himself kicked/muted/whatever from the Discord by misbehaving in the process either.
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groot
Doesn't really help that the submitter got himself kicked/muted/whatever from the Discord by misbehaving in the process either.
I won’t resort to piling on but I’m surprised this got through
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HG
I won’t resort to piling on but I’m surprised this got through
Every submitted HIP that conforms with the HIP guidelines should be given equal treatment though
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The title says it all honestly. Extremely populist and rhetorical
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groot
Every submitted HIP that conforms with the HIP guidelines should be given equal treatment though
I actually agree with that. Great point.
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It should be noted and disclosed that the author of this hip runs a hosting service with a large fleet of hotspots.
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Thank you
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This seems to exclude people who serve as hosts for others (emrit, fairspot, etc…) unless I missed something. These people, especially those who started early, might control a significant amount of HNT and thus have a significant vested interest in the state of the network.
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HNT is the true measure of vested interest in the network.
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Deleted User 05/04/2022 6:05 AM
Where’s the code for this HIP? Anyway, RIP in peace, DOA on arrival 🤪
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Also not all deployments are created equal. Why should a hotspot sitting in someone’s living room with a stock antenna be equally valued in terms of voting share as one that’s mounted on a telephone mast? Differences in deployments are reflected in HNT rewards.
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Keenan
It should be noted and disclosed that the author of this hip runs a hosting service with a large fleet of hotspots.
Also worth noting who else owns large fleets of hotspots. Case in point, once a few Pisces got deny listed on 25-Apr and more started getting flagged to deny list review on 26-Apr, two days later it appears roughly 7,000 (I think) went offline mysteriously, and have stayed offline since. CTH Red Team have then since flagged I believe well over this number for deny list review. I.e. seems like there is a large fleet of gaming Pisces under single control. And they are almost certainly not the only large gaming fleet. One might say that even fleets of 10,000 are nothing against a community of 740,000 HS, but it's about who shows up to vote. If 8,000 regular community show up to vote, Mr Big Gamer can swing the whole thing. (edited)
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Does anyone know what the terms of this guy’s hosting agreements are? Does he pay out in HNT or fiat? What percentage? I don’t want to overly speculate on his intentions but it almost seems like he’s trying to clawback voting power from his hosts? (Let me know if this comment isn’t allowed)
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I think all those types of motivations are on the table but we probably shouldn’t piling on in here.
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Fair enough, I guess we’ll hear him out on the call
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It’s fairly obvious that this hip is less than rigorous and it’s likely it will be treated accordingly
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It also has 5 clear spelling errors in 400 words, suggesting a lack of care.
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I don't think a switch to one-miner one-vote is the correct answer here. I believe there's 3 major parties building the network. Miner, Validators, and Routers. If any one of those stop we wouldn't have Helium. I can also stand behind HNT if you were required to stake that HNT to vote with. However, at a bare minimum HNT is not a security so those who simply own HNT shouldn't have a vote in the network. It is however, the easiest proxy that we have. Ideally, at a minimum each of the above groups should have a voice. But it should be constructed in a way that doesn't make one voice louder than the rest. Hotspots - you sum the accounts miners transmit scales and times the agreed upon valuation of that hardware in USD. If you had 1 miner with 1.0 transmit scale = 500 for example. Validators - the agreed upon valuation of a validator in USD. If you had 1 validator = 150,000 Router - the amount of DC on hand in USD. (I don't run a router so hard to gauge its value but no data is moved without them so their very important) Then for every vote there's separate sub-group votes. Hotspots vs Hotspots, Validators vs Validators, etc. The result of these votes determine the groups vote for the HIP. Supermajority of affected entities is needed to pass. The HIP will describe the entities directly affected by the HIP. Those entities are required to vote (they are the only ones needed to approve the vote) the rest can vote but can only vote against the HIP as a checks and balance. This whole system would need to be ensured to have checks in balances for obvious reasons.
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Deleted User
Generally in favour of this because right now the voting system allows anyone to hoover up HNT and swing the vote. How about validators? My suggestion in an earlier discussion was votes per validator = no. of online hotspots / no. of online validators or a variation thereof (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:00 AM
I had thought perhaps weight it based on DC cost to onboard. So for hotspot that would be 1,055,000 DC. Validator you'd need to convert 10,000 HNT to DC equivalent, then divide that by 1,055,000.
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Anthonyra
I don't think a switch to one-miner one-vote is the correct answer here. I believe there's 3 major parties building the network. Miner, Validators, and Routers. If any one of those stop we wouldn't have Helium. I can also stand behind HNT if you were required to stake that HNT to vote with. However, at a bare minimum HNT is not a security so those who simply own HNT shouldn't have a vote in the network. It is however, the easiest proxy that we have. Ideally, at a minimum each of the above groups should have a voice. But it should be constructed in a way that doesn't make one voice louder than the rest. Hotspots - you sum the accounts miners transmit scales and times the agreed upon valuation of that hardware in USD. If you had 1 miner with 1.0 transmit scale = 500 for example. Validators - the agreed upon valuation of a validator in USD. If you had 1 validator = 150,000 Router - the amount of DC on hand in USD. (I don't run a router so hard to gauge its value but no data is moved without them so their very important) Then for every vote there's separate sub-group votes. Hotspots vs Hotspots, Validators vs Validators, etc. The result of these votes determine the groups vote for the HIP. Supermajority of affected entities is needed to pass. The HIP will describe the entities directly affected by the HIP. Those entities are required to vote (they are the only ones needed to approve the vote) the rest can vote but can only vote against the HIP as a checks and balance. This whole system would need to be ensured to have checks in balances for obvious reasons.
I do like this, but is there an exploit here where the author(s) of the HIP get to pick the "entities directly affected by the HIP"? As a silly example, the authors of HIP-55 could decide just validators are the sub-group needed.
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krby
I do like this, but is there an exploit here where the author(s) of the HIP get to pick the "entities directly affected by the HIP"? As a silly example, the authors of HIP-55 could decide just validators are the sub-group needed.
Based on HIP-7, the HIP editor (ie Jamie) is the one who sets the affected entities ... techinically. I know it's rough, but decentralized voting isn't easy. But maybe there needs to be a vote accepting a HIP to an official vote where everyone agrees to said voting limitations 😅 (edited)
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Ahh, thanks. Ok, we end up having to trust Helium Foundation a bunch anyway, so this isn't so bad.
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great idea this HIP👍 it gives voting power to those actually deploying the network in the real world, also stops potential vote abuse via temporary whaling hnt to sway a vote.
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Question. Are they miners, or hotspots? :3
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HG
I respect the effort put in to develop this but the HIP uses a good deal of emotionally charged language to frame the current voting process as bad without explaining the specific technical reason why the change should be made. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:33 AM
Care to point out what parts of the language in the HIP are "emotionally charged"? Glad to clarify or make any appropriate edits to remove any sense of that where applicable.
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Always surprises me when this topic comes up that people don’t see how valuable speculators are to the network. None of you would be here without them. Feels bizarre to me that a $500 hotspot owner is “more valuable” than someone injecting hundreds of thousands or millions of $ of value into the ecosystem
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capcom
Always surprises me when this topic comes up that people don’t see how valuable speculators are to the network. None of you would be here without them. Feels bizarre to me that a $500 hotspot owner is “more valuable” than someone injecting hundreds of thousands or millions of $ of value into the ecosystem
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:34 AM
Speculators should invest in Nova Labs via equity and/or HSTs...not the network itself.
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Completely misunderstands the value of token economics
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:35 AM
"speculating" on the network can be done by means of operating hotspots, validators, or routers.
07:35
I'd question "misunderstands" and grant "disagrees with weight given to value".
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Anyway, good luck with this one 👍🏼
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capcom
Anyway, good luck with this one 👍🏼
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:36 AM
We'll have to see what the community thinks. 😉
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Keenan
It should be noted and disclosed that the author of this hip runs a hosting service with a large fleet of hotspots.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:36 AM
Nothing being hidden. 😉
07:37
The antagonism around this amazes me just as much as anything tbh. But I probably shouldn't be surprised when there is an inherent financial interest vested in the subject. (edited)
07:38
The fact that it comes up so often probably says there's something there to be addressed as opposed to being dismissed. 💁
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HG
The title says it all honestly. Extremely populist and rhetorical
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:39 AM
Interested in hearing how a simple "calling the HIP what it is" is "populist and rhetorical"..
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Deleted User
Where’s the code for this HIP? Anyway, RIP in peace, DOA on arrival 🤪
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:40 AM
thanks for the productive input. 👍
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KXI
Also worth noting who else owns large fleets of hotspots. Case in point, once a few Pisces got deny listed on 25-Apr and more started getting flagged to deny list review on 26-Apr, two days later it appears roughly 7,000 (I think) went offline mysteriously, and have stayed offline since. CTH Red Team have then since flagged I believe well over this number for deny list review. I.e. seems like there is a large fleet of gaming Pisces under single control. And they are almost certainly not the only large gaming fleet. One might say that even fleets of 10,000 are nothing against a community of 740,000 HS, but it's about who shows up to vote. If 8,000 regular community show up to vote, Mr Big Gamer can swing the whole thing. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:41 AM
you kind of answered your own question, I think. 🙂 The denylist exists as a check on these concerns. 👍
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jhbr821
Does anyone know what the terms of this guy’s hosting agreements are? Does he pay out in HNT or fiat? What percentage? I don’t want to overly speculate on his intentions but it almost seems like he’s trying to clawback voting power from his hosts? (Let me know if this comment isn’t allowed)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:41 AM
https://www.internetofwe.net/terms again, nothing to hide here.
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KXI
It also has 5 clear spelling errors in 400 words, suggesting a lack of care.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:43 AM
man if this isn't a reach idk what is, lol...not sure what that has to do with literally any substance whatsoever but if it's that important to you I'd be more than glad to make corrections to eliminate that distraction. 🤷‍♂️
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Anthonyra
I don't think a switch to one-miner one-vote is the correct answer here. I believe there's 3 major parties building the network. Miner, Validators, and Routers. If any one of those stop we wouldn't have Helium. I can also stand behind HNT if you were required to stake that HNT to vote with. However, at a bare minimum HNT is not a security so those who simply own HNT shouldn't have a vote in the network. It is however, the easiest proxy that we have. Ideally, at a minimum each of the above groups should have a voice. But it should be constructed in a way that doesn't make one voice louder than the rest. Hotspots - you sum the accounts miners transmit scales and times the agreed upon valuation of that hardware in USD. If you had 1 miner with 1.0 transmit scale = 500 for example. Validators - the agreed upon valuation of a validator in USD. If you had 1 validator = 150,000 Router - the amount of DC on hand in USD. (I don't run a router so hard to gauge its value but no data is moved without them so their very important) Then for every vote there's separate sub-group votes. Hotspots vs Hotspots, Validators vs Validators, etc. The result of these votes determine the groups vote for the HIP. Supermajority of affected entities is needed to pass. The HIP will describe the entities directly affected by the HIP. Those entities are required to vote (they are the only ones needed to approve the vote) the rest can vote but can only vote against the HIP as a checks and balance. This whole system would need to be ensured to have checks in balances for obvious reasons.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:47 AM
the name in summary seems to have become a distraction; if you check the #hip-discussion channel and I believe the comments on the actual github issue, you'll find that the validators and routers have been discussed as being part of the consideration here.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
you kind of answered your own question, I think. 🙂 The denylist exists as a check on these concerns. 👍
There are likely 10,000s of gamed miners operating right now not on the denylist, most controlled by a small number of people, and this will likely continue to occur in future as the cat and mouse game goes on. Currently the mouse is doing pretty well. Are you claiming that all gamers are caught immediately? Because that is quite obviously not true.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:55 AM
definitely not trying to "claw back" any control, except from whale holders who don't seem to do any actual work on the network beyond pontificate and throw money at tokens. And to that end I can wholly appreciate the perception of "antagoism" towards said parties, but it's a bit weird in the most literal sense to me that we're so quick to the defense of multimillion $ "investors" but so antagonistic toward smaller deployers who realistically have a few 100 hotspots out of nearly a million at this stage in network growth. it seems rather over stated / backwards. If hosts would like to vote under this proposal [speaking strictly for our own business] we do also offer options to purchase hotspots directly....not to mention the whole point of delegation is such that if you don't like how the part(ies) you're delegating to then you can simply re-issue your delegation to another provider. This would be functionally the same as DPoS with validators.
07:55
speaking for us personally we don't even own the majority of the hotspots we operate, we assist other owners in managing theirs.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
man if this isn't a reach idk what is, lol...not sure what that has to do with literally any substance whatsoever but if it's that important to you I'd be more than glad to make corrections to eliminate that distraction. 🤷‍♂️
You've submitted a proposal to make a large change to a global network. A proposal that affects 100,000s of people and many millions of $ of work & investment. And you didn't spell check it or proof-read it? What kind of impression do you think that gives about the care and attention that went into this? Would you do that in an important professional document?
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KXI
There are likely 10,000s of gamed miners operating right now not on the denylist, most controlled by a small number of people, and this will likely continue to occur in future as the cat and mouse game goes on. Currently the mouse is doing pretty well. Are you claiming that all gamers are caught immediately? Because that is quite obviously not true.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:56 AM
would be definitely interested in a citation of the "10,000s" and how it's being concluded that gaming is going on. 👍 will check that out
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I think this is an idea to be considered. As far as I know, none of the governance HIPs have passed. Therefore, we can still explore all the options. Governance by HNT lockup as in HIP 41 has the positive that locking tokens helps reduce liquidity of the token and rewards large investors. On the flip side, I think using HNT lockup favors the early adopter who have tons of HNT because they joined earlier. New players, unless they are super wealthy (aka corporations) to buy large volumes of HNT will not have the same voice. Using another mechanism like miner, validator or router helps level the playing field. I am not saying this HIP is perfect or the answer, but we should explore some more options and not immediately dismiss it.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:56 AM
the approach being used with denylist frankly is pretty "guilty until proven innocent" as-is.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
would be definitely interested in a citation of the "10,000s" and how it's being concluded that gaming is going on. 👍 will check that out
So you are saying it's not true that this level of gaming is going on?
07:57
Have you seen the recent picses deny list additions?
07:57
Did you spot the 9,000 deeper miners that got denylisted?
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KXI
You've submitted a proposal to make a large change to a global network. A proposal that affects 100,000s of people and many millions of $ of work & investment. And you didn't spell check it or proof-read it? What kind of impression do you think that gives about the care and attention that went into this? Would you do that in an important professional document?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:57 AM
you're talking about literally "5 words" and spelling. don't much appreciate the implied elitism, frankly I don't think others do either. seems like grasping at straws. can we keep the discussion related to the substance of the proposal and not nitpicky edge issues?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
would be definitely interested in a citation of the "10,000s" and how it's being concluded that gaming is going on. 👍 will check that out
BFG Neil said the other day he estimates 50,000 HS are gaming, whether you think that exact figure is accurate, it gives an clear indication about the perceived scale from people in the know
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KXI
BFG Neil said the other day he estimates 50,000 HS are gaming, whether you think that exact figure is accurate, it gives an clear indication about the perceived scale from people in the know
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:00 AM
like I said, feel free to point me to the citations of those accusations I'll gladly take a look.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Care to point out what parts of the language in the HIP are "emotionally charged"? Glad to clarify or make any appropriate edits to remove any sense of that where applicable.
“Simply holding large balances”, “extremely limited straw polls”, “obviously lacked any official process”
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KXI
So you are saying it's not true that this level of gaming is going on?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:01 AM
no, I'm saying you seem to be making vague unfounded claims as far as particular figures.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
no, I'm saying you seem to be making vague unfounded claims as far as particular figures.
You have heard of Deeper yes?
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KXI
BFG Neil said the other day he estimates 50,000 HS are gaming, whether you think that exact figure is accurate, it gives an clear indication about the perceived scale from people in the know
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:01 AM
BFG said it so it must be true, I guess
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HG
“Simply holding large balances”, “extremely limited straw polls”, “obviously lacked any official process”
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:02 AM
those are literally just objective statements? I'm sorry they feel emotional to you.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
those are literally just objective statements? I'm sorry they feel emotional to you.
Prove it, hold yourself to the same standards you're throwing at @KXI.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:02 AM
I don't think "extremely limited straw polls" would be contested by just about anyone. I wasn't even the first to say it, I was citing something someone else said indirectly. 🤷‍♂️
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Interested in hearing how a simple "calling the HIP what it is" is "populist and rhetorical"..
“One hotspot, one vote” implies “unfairness” which has no meaning in an economic context. Fairness is used to appeal to those feeling shorted by a process or system. This is populism. (edited)
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KXI
You have heard of Deeper yes?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:03 AM
yes, and COTX, and PantnerX
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groot
Prove it, hold yourself to the same standards you're throwing at @KXI.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:03 AM
"prove" what, exactly?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I don't think "extremely limited straw polls" would be contested by just about anyone. I wasn't even the first to say it, I was citing something someone else said indirectly. 🤷‍♂️
I agree that they are limited, but the word extremely isn’t necessary and shows bias
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
yes, and COTX, and PantnerX
Great. And how many Deeper miners were denylisted as a result of the MOC decision?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
"prove" what, exactly?
"extremely limited straw polls", "obviously lacked any official process". How were they limited, and how was did it obviously lack any official process. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
those are literally just objective statements? I'm sorry they feel emotional to you.
Simply is a word that trivializes the ability for one to hold large amount of tokens
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HG
I agree that they are limited, but the word extremely isn’t necessary and shows bias
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:05 AM
eh, I'll grant it's subjective. can change it if it's of that much import.
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You are leading the reader to feel a certain way about those holding large balances
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:05 AM
not sure what other definition of "extremely" would be appropriate to you or others though...straw polls on discord were literally <100 people voting while that was the method being used
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KXI
Great. And how many Deeper miners were denylisted as a result of the MOC decision?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:07 AM
first off you're moving the goalpost here as you stated: there are likely 10,000s of gamed miners operating right now not on the denylist
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The antagonism around this amazes me just as much as anything tbh. But I probably shouldn't be surprised when there is an inherent financial interest vested in the subject. The fact that it comes up so often probably says there's something there to be addressed as opposed to being dismissed
Ya, I don't fault the HIP for your background owning a hosting company. You're right about the financial interest part making people suspect motives immediately. From an outside perspective it seems obvious to me someone was going to attack you with: "of COURSE you're writing a HIP that personally benefits you" but that's hindsight. That doesn't mean the HIP is wrong or a bad idea, but it's sort of an easy obvious attack to defend against. You either say it here (like you did), but I know people will miss in backscroll, or you put it in the HIP.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:07 AM
you weren't talking about "conclusively" decided gaming units, you were talking about presently gaming and undetermined gaming units.
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krby
The antagonism around this amazes me just as much as anything tbh. But I probably shouldn't be surprised when there is an inherent financial interest vested in the subject. The fact that it comes up so often probably says there's something there to be addressed as opposed to being dismissed
Ya, I don't fault the HIP for your background owning a hosting company. You're right about the financial interest part making people suspect motives immediately. From an outside perspective it seems obvious to me someone was going to attack you with: "of COURSE you're writing a HIP that personally benefits you" but that's hindsight. That doesn't mean the HIP is wrong or a bad idea, but it's sort of an easy obvious attack to defend against. You either say it here (like you did), but I know people will miss in backscroll, or you put it in the HIP.
The thing is that this HIP is a bad idea
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HG
Simply is a word that trivializes the ability for one to hold large amount of tokens
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:08 AM
as it should be [IMO], what effort or contribution to the network is required to just buy and hold? (arguably what validators are for if anything) but again if you really want to get to the level of pedantry where you're debating semantics and subjectively interpreted emphasis then there's no reason that can be changed. (edited)
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Maybe if you'd stop using all those ridiculous enormous amazing hyperboles towards everyone who dares to disagree with you this could actually be a discussion on merit. Instead you seem intent on creating enemies by throwing shade every time someone disagrees with you.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
as it should be [IMO], what effort or contribution to the network is required to just buy and hold? (arguably what validators are for if anything) but again if you really want to get to the level of pedantry where you're debating semantics and subjectively interpreted emphasis then there's no reason that can be changed. (edited)
They are HNT value which is what supports the network. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
like I said, feel free to point me to the citations of those accusations I'll gladly take a look.
Have a look at the recent pisces additions: For example: https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/4491 out of many 1,000s of Pisces flagged for review in the last few days https://github.com/helium/denylist/issues/created_by/CTH-Red-Team-Mapping-Service-I004?page=4&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+author%3ACTH-Red-Team-Mapping-Service-I004 What you seem to be saying is 'i refuse to believe that gaming is occurring on any scale until it is definitely proven that these ones are gaming and even then that doesn't prove anyone else is doing it'. Seriously, come on. Even if you think CTH is being trigger-happy here, you can't deny there is significant suspicious activity, and that handling 'control' of the network over to large HS owners isn't therefore a big possible risk?
Hotspot b58 Addresses 11YWGMoFu3hyWp2ExRFTK6WYHPCf894T2BRBPbHW2gK4XKW5sC4 11Yfmn6pL4jjDF8LgLncfTdMqP7dGs95PaakzeTyL2HQt6qna9U 11xGUVyUYL7uMCgkaoPPQoSCNEjoZ612peP8E9L446tpo4o2wd5 11x45xprupjyNHPnv4P...
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HG
The thing is that this HIP is a bad idea
Sure, but the author's motivation or suspected motivation is not arguments against the HIP. (edited)
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Deleted User 05/04/2022 8:10 AM
Should be mentioned that the vote for the “one miner one vote” vote, will be balloted just like any other HIP.
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And I will debate language used because a HIP is not a persuasive piece of writing it is a technical document. (edited)
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08:11
There shouldn’t be any use of emotive conjugation.
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krby
The antagonism around this amazes me just as much as anything tbh. But I probably shouldn't be surprised when there is an inherent financial interest vested in the subject. The fact that it comes up so often probably says there's something there to be addressed as opposed to being dismissed
Ya, I don't fault the HIP for your background owning a hosting company. You're right about the financial interest part making people suspect motives immediately. From an outside perspective it seems obvious to me someone was going to attack you with: "of COURSE you're writing a HIP that personally benefits you" but that's hindsight. That doesn't mean the HIP is wrong or a bad idea, but it's sort of an easy obvious attack to defend against. You either say it here (like you did), but I know people will miss in backscroll, or you put it in the HIP.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:11 AM
mainly what gets me on this is that people somehow look past the larger influence whale holders have in present form but somehow manage to find the flaw in comparably much smaller entities actually providing coverage. but you are correct in that it shouldn't come as much a surprise. why I said above "well have to wait and see how the community feels about it". messenger [should be] less important than the message.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
you weren't talking about "conclusively" decided gaming units, you were talking about presently gaming and undetermined gaming units.
Right - so you're saying 'just because it happened before doesn't mean it will happen again' - sure. But don't you think it's a little bit likely it COULD happen? And then when there's pretty good evidence from the last few days that it IS happening?
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krby
Sure, but the author's motivation or suspected motivation is not arguments against the HIP. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:12 AM
part of the HIP process is refining the proposal, so it's also kinda weird to me that (in general) people seem to just read HIPs at face value. There is ample opportunity to work through changes and discussions of said changes before the HIP is ultimately voted on and/or implemented. 👍
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
part of the HIP process is refining the proposal, so it's also kinda weird to me that (in general) people seem to just read HIPs at face value. There is ample opportunity to work through changes and discussions of said changes before the HIP is ultimately voted on and/or implemented. 👍
I agree with this
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:13 AM
I only initiate HIPs to start a conversation. I can't speak for the entire community. If anything it's to solicit public feedback. 🤷‍♂️
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Deleted User 05/04/2022 8:13 AM
The community with the largest voting power is the said whales. Why would they vote to change that?
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groot
Maybe if you'd stop using all those ridiculous enormous amazing hyperboles towards everyone who dares to disagree with you this could actually be a discussion on merit. Instead you seem intent on creating enemies by throwing shade every time someone disagrees with you.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:14 AM
maybe if you stop having an axe to grind and taking issues with semantic considerations aside from reading through semantics to the underlying intent, we wouldn't lose the forest through the trees... 🙂
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Deleted User 05/04/2022 8:14 AM
lol
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Deleted User
The community with the largest voting power is the said whales. Why would they vote to change that?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:16 AM
good question. don't think this is at odds with anything I've said or suggested. you pretty much just tacitly stated there's a conflict of interest....
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
maybe if you stop having an axe to grind and taking issues with semantic considerations aside from reading through semantics to the underlying intent, we wouldn't lose the forest through the trees... 🙂
Coming from the man who got axed for breaking every rule in #rules after/during our last discussion where I approached this HIP at face value only to get butchered for it. Good luck with your HIP.
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This is one of those situations where diplomacy rather than a blunt instrument is required. But based on this discussion so far I’m not seeing that being a likely outcome
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HG
The thing is that this HIP is a bad idea
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:17 AM
I don't believe you've stated a material reason as to why.
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krby
Sure, but the author's motivation or suspected motivation is not arguments against the HIP. (edited)
100% agreed. Attacking the person behind the HiP is bad faith arguing 101
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I don't believe you've stated a material reason as to why.
I didn’t that is correct. Need time to articulate
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HG
They are HNT value which is what supports the network. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:18 AM
so then the network is a speculative vehicle for capital returns then, eh? Not a utility network for secure and cost effective data transfer?
08:18
that's basically how I read that position
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
so then the network is a speculative vehicle for capital returns then, eh? Not a utility network for secure and cost effective data transfer?
No it’s a capital markets mechanism to incentivize economic activity. HNT having a non-zero value is a critical component to that mechanism.
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groot
Coming from the man who got axed for breaking every rule in #rules after/during our last discussion where I approached this HIP at face value only to get butchered for it. Good luck with your HIP.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:19 AM
care to cite what rules those are that are violated? you seem awfully concerned with personal grievance and ignoring the substance of the HIP as I've asked we refocus to a few times now.
08:19
If you have any personal issues feel free to take those to DMs, otherwise please keep the discourse relevant to the substance of the HIP.
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I’d argue that those providing the marginal demand for HNT at this point in the network build out are the most valuable contributors (edited)
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HG
No it’s a capital markets mechanism to incentivize economic activity. HNT having a non-zero value is a critical component to that mechanism.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:21 AM
so then the only way to achieve "non-zero value" is by taking investment capital from speculating entities?
facepalm 1
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
so then the only way to achieve "non-zero value" is by taking investment capital from speculating entities?
Yes that is how capital markets work
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:21 AM
you won't find me arguing that speculators / "investors" are key in early stages. I've simply stated over and over again what is the shelf life or the point of diminishing returns on that early investment
08:21
it certainly isnt forever and always until the end of time. that's irrational
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
you won't find me arguing that speculators / "investors" are key in early stages. I've simply stated over and over again what is the shelf life or the point of diminishing returns on that early investment
The network has basically no demand side burn rn so we aren’t close to that point
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:22 AM
there should be more incentive to use the HNT in the network. You can just as easily "speculate" by staking validators. Just holding the token in a wallet in and of itself doesn't really do anything productive
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
there should be more incentive to use the HNT in the network. You can just as easily "speculate" by staking validators. Just holding the token in a wallet in and of itself doesn't really do anything productive
Yes it does. It supports the value of HNT (edited)
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HG
Yes that is how capital markets work
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:23 AM
lmao no it certainly is not
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
there should be more incentive to use the HNT in the network. You can just as easily "speculate" by staking validators. Just holding the token in a wallet in and of itself doesn't really do anything productive
It does. You had to acquire the tokens for some value, which causes the value of the network as a whole to increase (typically). Without speculation none of you would be here. That’s not a negative thing. It’s the purpose of crypto economic models
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:24 AM
literally the entire purpose of "token economics". None of that intrinsically requires strictly holding entities. You seem to be missing the point that you can still achieve capital speculation through staking validators and other mechanisms that actually materially provide a utility service to the network function in and of itself.
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You’re opinion on the value of capital allocators is biased via the media narrative (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:24 AM
I'm not seeing why it's so important to just hold a balance in a wallet. In fact if you're not willing to stake in a 5 month period (or frankly even less in the case of delegating to pools) then I would question how "invested" you really are.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/04/2022 8:25 AM
Our job, as miners in the Helium Network is not to collect HNT. Our job is to expand the network, and thus, get rewarded with HNT. One Hotspot, one vote, is a start. I still feel that a person who is actively working to expand the network should have a more weighted vote than those who bought a miner and "set it and forget it". Many of these hotspots are found in heavily conjested areas that are doing little to expand the network. I like the idea of weighted votes based on Transmit scales. This would help to motivate others to move their stagnant hotspots to areas that would expand the network and give them better rewards. We are a community working together to build something. Those that are "working" should be rewarded with "more say" in the direction of the project. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I'm not seeing why it's so important to just hold a balance in a wallet. In fact if you're not willing to stake in a 5 month period (or frankly even less in the case of delegating to pools) then I would question how "invested" you really are.
It supports the value of HNT
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@HG has exactly the correct explanation for how this works and why it matters
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capcom
It does. You had to acquire the tokens for some value, which causes the value of the network as a whole to increase (typically). Without speculation none of you would be here. That’s not a negative thing. It’s the purpose of crypto economic models
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:25 AM
should probably clarify, the issue is less with "speculation" writ large and more with "unproductive" speculation. Something that isn't furthering the utility of the network itself (data transfer, securing transactions, routing data)
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Just screen grabbed that hat tip!
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Our job, as miners in the Helium Network is not to collect HNT. Our job is to expand the network, and thus, get rewarded with HNT. One Hotspot, one vote, is a start. I still feel that a person who is actively working to expand the network should have a more weighted vote than those who bought a miner and "set it and forget it". Many of these hotspots are found in heavily conjested areas that are doing little to expand the network. I like the idea of weighted votes based on Transmit scales. This would help to motivate others to move their stagnant hotspots to areas that would expand the network and give them better rewards. We are a community working together to build something. Those that are "working" should be rewarded with "more say" in the direction of the project. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:26 AM
I think there was a good idea suggested above about also adding some kind of above and beyond weight to votes, like the transmit scale for example.
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capcom
@HG has exactly the correct explanation for how this works and why it matters
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:27 AM
you're still really only swaying me in seed stages of network development. I haven't really seen any response as to what the shelf life of that usefulness is.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
should probably clarify, the issue is less with "speculation" writ large and more with "unproductive" speculation. Something that isn't furthering the utility of the network itself (data transfer, securing transactions, routing data)
It’s ok to disagree on what is productive and what isn’t. But it’s important to understand how much of the value of HNT and helium today exists because of speculators. Again it’s not a bad thing. It’s why public market companies have varying P/E ratios
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:27 AM
1M hotspots (and continuing to grow) hardly seems like seed stage anymore
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
you're still really only swaying me in seed stages of network development. I haven't really seen any response as to what the shelf life of that usefulness is.
It’s simple. HNT value would only be equal to DC burn
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capcom
It’s simple. HNT value would only be equal to DC burn
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:27 AM
and that's problematic...how
08:27
isn't that the whole premise of PoC to DT transition?
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"seed stage" isn't just based on the size of the network. It's based on use too.
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If I have to explain that then we’re in a bad starting place
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:28 AM
all I'm suggesting is that there is an equally diminishing value of value of seed stage raw capital investment
08:28
can we can an answer though on "why can't these individuals just stake in a validator"
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
isn't that the whole premise of PoC to DT transition?
Yea but it happens organically as defined by the protocol today. DC eats away at PoC, but only when it happens
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:29 AM
it's not like the proposed change inhibits those from speculating. it's just asking they put the stake towards some productive use that isn't subject to sporadic dumping
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
can we can an answer though on "why can't these individuals just stake in a validator"
Many do. Almost every large holder does today
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jhbr821
"seed stage" isn't just based on the size of the network. It's based on use too.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:29 AM
what scale of use would you say defines that point then?
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capcom
Yea but it happens organically as defined by the protocol today. DC eats away at PoC, but only when it happens
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:30 AM
then we should be doing more to ensure that happens..."number go up" is a terrible long term strategy on a fundamental level
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It’s not really the point though. The point is that HNT holders are extraordinarily valuable to the ecosystem, and this HIP does nothing to recognize that
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capcom
Many do. Almost every large holder does today
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:30 AM
then I don't see the problem here.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
then we should be doing more to ensure that happens..."number go up" is a terrible long term strategy on a fundamental level
Agreed, unrelated to this discussion
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capcom
It’s not really the point though. The point is that HNT holders are extraordinarily valuable to the ecosystem, and this HIP does nothing to recognize that
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:31 AM
not arguing that holders aren't valuable. simply asking "why is it apparently such a controversial issue that they simply stake if they want to vote"?
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I’d suggest voting by token lock is better in that case
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:31 AM
You can still hold and speculate as you did before. You just don't vote.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
what scale of use would you say defines that point then?
Hypothetically when revenue approaches equilibrium valuation suggested by DC burn. I think the standard for a business is valuation of ~4x revenue. Right now it's ~33x.
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capcom
I’d suggest voting by token lock is better in that case
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:31 AM
so validators with extra steps
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I think that’s a disservice to a very well thought out hip
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:32 AM
that HIP was proposed 6 months ago and has gone nowhere. it seems pretty DOA to me...
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Personally still feels like the right approach. But no way we have time to implement it anytime soon and it came with no code
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:33 AM
even in the hip channel Tushar himself says it's been scrapped
08:36
I'd also ask, if HNT is the mechanism for speculative investment, why do HSTs exist
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To reward the initial investors and team. Completely unrelated points
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:36 AM
not at all
08:36
entirely related.
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HST is just time locked HNT in absence of a pre mine. It has no bearing on how others speculate
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I am starting to lose the back and forth here. Can all values of the network be considered here? Large HNT holders can still be incorporated with large holders of hotspots, both having a relatively equal voting power? The challenge here is dividing what value is an investment and when. Acquiring HNT way-back-when was "cheaper" and "easier". If the bases of an argument is "They were early investors" I personally think that is invalid, they reap the rewards of that investment in another form, and that should not be in voting power directly. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:37 AM
I'm interested in the arbitrary delineating line between those that are provided HSTs and those that should just speculate (because HNT isn't a security, as well all recall) via HNT
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capcom
HST is just time locked HNT in absence of a pre mine. It has no bearing on how others speculate
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:37 AM
so again, pre mine with extra steps. lol
08:37
the semantic hoops are weird man
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Sure, if you like
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:38 AM
just call it what it is.
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I think it’s a lot more fair than a pre mine but that’s just my opinion
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Fizzy
I am starting to lose the back and forth here. Can all values of the network be considered here? Large HNT holders can still be incorporated with large holders of hotspots, both having a relatively equal voting power? The challenge here is dividing what value is an investment and when. Acquiring HNT way-back-when was "cheaper" and "easier". If the bases of an argument is "They were early investors" I personally think that is invalid, they reap the rewards of that investment in another form, and that should not be in voting power directly. (edited)
They also took on a much greater risk at the time
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capcom
I think it’s a lot more fair than a pre mine but that’s just my opinion
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:38 AM
elaborate? 🤔
08:38
why is it more fair?
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I’m not aware of any pre mine tokens that are locked over a 50 year period
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:38 AM
why does the lock make it more "fair" though?
08:39
sure it maybe prevents some large scale dumping
08:39
but not sure what that has to do with "fair"
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Because it incentivizes the participants to continue to add value and be aligned economically with the networks success. The same reason that stock vests. Also getting off topic
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jhbr821
They also took on a much greater risk at the time
"At the time"? That is hindsight. Everything could be downhill from here, risk is the same anywhere you are. I'll reiterate that acquiring HNT way-back-when was "cheaper" and "easier".
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I’ve also run out of time, Godspeed
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Fizzy
I am starting to lose the back and forth here. Can all values of the network be considered here? Large HNT holders can still be incorporated with large holders of hotspots, both having a relatively equal voting power? The challenge here is dividing what value is an investment and when. Acquiring HNT way-back-when was "cheaper" and "easier". If the bases of an argument is "They were early investors" I personally think that is invalid, they reap the rewards of that investment in another form, and that should not be in voting power directly. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:40 AM
honestly it's not so much about the holders it's more about the fact that they can buy and dump solely for the purposes of goosing votes
08:40
if you require some network involvement they can't take the HNT back out once it's been spent on onboarding/assertion, DC loading into console, staked in validators
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capcom
I’ve also run out of time, Godspeed
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:40 AM
thanks for the time. 👍 👋
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Fizzy
"At the time"? That is hindsight. Everything could be downhill from here, risk is the same anywhere you are. I'll reiterate that acquiring HNT way-back-when was "cheaper" and "easier".
I think that's a frankly ridiculous statement. Risk is not constant. Of course it always is present but it is not equal. It's far riskier to invest in something that literally no one is using at the time.
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capcom
Because it incentivizes the participants to continue to add value and be aligned economically with the networks success. The same reason that stock vests. Also getting off topic
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:41 AM
respectfully disagree that it's off topic, but neither here nor there.
08:41
we're talking about stake in network development, so it seems pretty relevant. 🤷‍♂️
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jhbr821
I think that's a frankly ridiculous statement. Risk is not constant. Of course it always is present but it is not equal. It's far riskier to invest in something that literally no one is using at the time.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:42 AM
I don't think they said risk is constant. if anything I think you suggested that by implying there is a linear trend of risk that was higher at one point in the past and lower now
08:43
careful of those "emotionally suggestive terms", by the way. 😉
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jhbr821
I think that's a frankly ridiculous statement. Risk is not constant. Of course it always is present but it is not equal. It's far riskier to invest in something that literally no one is using at the time.
But you just said it was riskier? What makes that determination that it was more risky of a project? That sounds like a personal opinion. Like I said it could all be down hill from now, and that new "Investor" would have had more "Risk" because he was late, not early. Again, hindsight. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I don't think they said risk is constant. if anything I think you suggested that by implying there is a linear trend of risk that was higher at one point in the past and lower now
You contradicted yourself there.
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Fizzy
But you just said it was riskier? What makes that determination that it was more risky of a project? That sounds like a personal opinion. Like I said it could all be down hill from now, and that new "Investor" would have had more "Risk" because he was late, not early. Again, hindsight. (edited)
Sure exact risk can only be decided in hindsight. But on a macrolevel, it is riskier to invest in something that does not have a product and which no one is using. That's why Nova Labs valuation has increased.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:47 AM
nova labs valuation should move based on their isolated contributions to development etc. Not on token economics. but again getting into another tangent
08:48
we've been doing this weird public/private dance for 18+ months now so it's nothing new
08:49
why I brought up HSTs. HSTs are effectively an early investor premium pseduo-pre mine which arguably should / could have just been simple equity stake in helium, inc (nova labs). But that's not how they decided to go about it.
08:49
the fact that HSTs even exist has kind of trapped the entire network in this back and forth over security/not a security
08:50
would have made much more sense in hindsight [IMO] to have just had investors (e.g. multicoin) invest in equity holdings in helium,inc rather than mint a special kind of delayed release premine that's intrinsically linked to the chain itself. It's not allowing the network tokenomics to free float as much as ideal
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jhbr821
Sure exact risk can only be decided in hindsight. But on a macrolevel, it is riskier to invest in something that does not have a product and which no one is using. That's why Nova Labs valuation has increased.
Yes, and early investors have reaped the rewards. (now lets move the topic back on track) But that does not mean they should have more voting power by HNT holders alone. Do we have Elon or any of the other wealthiest people on the earth controlling the votes? Maybe in their own company.... And this is where Chris V and I collide points lol.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:52 AM
I kind of don't really understand frankly why the investments which got HSTs weren't just simply buying hotspot hardware and deploying it. ironically what current operator businesses are catching flak for...actually, materially deploying the network.
08:53
money in and of itself doesn't grow the network. that money is just being delegated downstream to those actually deploying the network. that's really all this attempts to get at....reward the people doing work, not the people signing checks.
08:54
sorry not sorry for the characterization. it's my opinion that others are free to disagree with.
08:55
on a much larger scale this conversation essentially boils down to the merits of PoS vs PoW 🤷‍♂️
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Chris, I feel like your HIP title needs to be changed if you and I truly on the same page that this needs to be more than what the title suggests. To be complex to the point where it makes most happy, and the rest so confused they accept it. (like the math on transmit scale) (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:56 AM
Helium has tried to play this hybrid middle ground where it's kind of sort of PoW in some aspects, kind of sort of PoS in others. Hence probably a large part of the contention between proponents of one vs the other.
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Fizzy
Chris, I feel like your HIP title needs to be changed if you and I truly on the same page that this needs to be more than what the title suggests. To be complex to the point where it makes most happy, and the rest so confused they accept it. (like the math on transmit scale) (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:56 AM
title is fairly arbitrary within reason...what would you suggest
08:57
it is slightly pejorative, I can grant
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
title is fairly arbitrary within reason...what would you suggest
Well, to me it vibes as a chant at a protest. Just sayin. lol
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Fizzy
Well, to me it vibes as a chant at a protest. Just sayin. lol
This was my point
08:59
Not appropriate for a technical document.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 8:59 AM
only so much descriptive language to fit in a title...lol
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
only so much descriptive language to fit in a title...lol
hip-60-voting-scales
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HG
Not appropriate for a technical document.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:00 AM
also materially irrelevant to substance 🤷‍♂️
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
also materially irrelevant to substance 🤷‍♂️
It exposes the true motivation of the HIP
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
also materially irrelevant to substance 🤷‍♂️
Right, but people are going to read this hip channel, not the hip itself for the most part. unless the title is more vague.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
would have made much more sense in hindsight [IMO] to have just had investors (e.g. multicoin) invest in equity holdings in helium,inc rather than mint a special kind of delayed release premine that's intrinsically linked to the chain itself. It's not allowing the network tokenomics to free float as much as ideal
I think you misunderstand where value lives. As with pretty much every VC backed chain, the founding team has no business or revenue model (see Solana labs, uniswap labs, Ava labs, etc). Their role is to advance the network. As such you could argue the equity is actually meaningless, as there is no value being created for shareholders. Many of those teams actually have no equity structure (like protocol labs). The investment is in the network, and the value of the network is reflected in the native token. So investing in nova equity is completely unrelated to the value of the network. This is true for every single VC backed chain, and why premines exist. If the team or investors had no economic upside in the network itself none of us would bother building any of these things
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HG
It exposes the true motivation of the HIP
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:05 AM
you're reading way too much into it. Just argue the merits, please.
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capcom
I think you misunderstand where value lives. As with pretty much every VC backed chain, the founding team has no business or revenue model (see Solana labs, uniswap labs, Ava labs, etc). Their role is to advance the network. As such you could argue the equity is actually meaningless, as there is no value being created for shareholders. Many of those teams actually have no equity structure (like protocol labs). The investment is in the network, and the value of the network is reflected in the native token. So investing in nova equity is completely unrelated to the value of the network. This is true for every single VC backed chain, and why premines exist. If the team or investors had no economic upside in the network itself none of us would bother building any of these things
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:06 AM
I think you have conflicts of interest, with all due respect. Not meant to be contentious. Just a statement of opinion.
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Irrelevant to the point I made. Of course I have conflicts of interest
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:06 AM
Or at least disagreements on how the helium / nova relationship should be structured
09:06
lmao a conflict of interest is never irrelevant
09:07
but if you say so, agree to disagree. 👍
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Just trying to illustrate how all of these networks are structured economically as you seem confused about nova equity vs helium network value
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:07 AM
not confused...wish you would respectfully stop conflating disagreement with misunderstanding.
09:08
they're historically and materially linked, you can't just sidestep the fact that they impact each other because it's inconvenient.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
you're reading way too much into it. Just argue the merits, please.
Sorry but it’s extremely important
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:08 AM
I'm well aware of the history involving helium inc the private business and the transition to a public / open source project
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Cool. Not sure I have much else to add so I’ll really bow out this time. Good luck with the HIP
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HG
Sorry but it’s extremely important
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:08 AM
to you, maybe
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
to you, maybe
It demonstrates that there is a lack of economic justification for the hip because you are playing to fairness and emotion
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HG
It demonstrates that there is a lack of economic justification for the hip because you are playing to fairness and emotion
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:11 AM
you literally have not made a single material argument here beyond your projected emotional inferences..so please address that before you continue accusing others of having strictly emotional motives.
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Deleted User 05/04/2022 9:12 AM
The feedback thus far is pretty concise.
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Deleted User
The feedback thus far is pretty concise.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:12 AM
the channel has been up for hours...relax.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
you literally have not made a single material argument here beyond your projected emotional inferences..so please address that before you continue accusing others of having strictly emotional motives.
The meaning and effect of language is factual (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:13 AM
there's like 5 people who have weighed in. So thanks for underscoring the point further on how little input it takes some people here to unilaterally decide their opinion is the right one on behalf of the entire 800K+ hotspot network 👍
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HG
The meaning and effect of language is factual (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:13 AM
no, it isn't. Because as the author I've repeatedly told you you're reading way too much into it.
09:14
Again, respectfully, please stop putting words and intentions into my mouth & head for me.
09:14
the confusion & assumptions are merited and valid. You continued insistance that you know my thoughts better than I do is not.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Again, respectfully, please stop putting words and intentions into my mouth & head for me.
You wrote the words down. They have meaning defined by a dictionary as well as contextually meaning
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:15 AM
Just stop.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:15 AM
thank you
09:15
I anxiously await reasoned arguments transcending emotional inference.
09:15
Until then, please...we get it. You don't like the naming conventions.
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Deleted User 05/04/2022 9:15 AM
Sure. You can direct people who share the same sentiments as you here later but I doubt whether the validity of your arguments will hold.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:15 AM
duly noted.
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Deleted User 05/04/2022 9:16 AM
You literally had the founder here giving you reasoned arguments lol
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Deleted User
Sure. You can direct people who share the same sentiments as you here later but I doubt whether the validity of your arguments will hold.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:16 AM
validity of my arguments hasn't been contested. just character assassination / ad hominem, personal grievance and emotionally loaded hand waving.
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Deleted User
You literally had the founder here giving you reasoned arguments lol
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:16 AM
the founder is not a king or an infallible god (edited)
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this hip will be discussed in the voice call, fyi.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:16 AM
pretty sure he. himself would attest to that.
09:17
its' really actually legitimately strange and weird that you view that as reason in and of itself. there's a name for that...appeal to authority.
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Deleted User 05/04/2022 9:19 AM
lol okay, I didn’t say he’s a king, and yes, it’s fine to sometimes appeal to authority. You claim character assassination but we all know that you have a record of prior infractions that stemmed from this kind of reaction. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:20 AM
it's fine to take it into consideration, authority in and of itself is not a valid reason.
09:20
I have a prior record of being disagreeable, which apparently is not allowed here.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
validity of my arguments hasn't been contested. just character assassination / ad hominem, personal grievance and emotionally loaded hand waving.
It was 100% contested during the discussion of capital market incentives (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:20 AM
you seem awfully keen to be a provocateur yourself so let's take it easy lol
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Deleted User 05/04/2022 9:21 AM
It’s nothing about you being disagreeable. It’s your tone and attitude bro. That’s all
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I think there is definitely room for us to optimise votes around network identities, but I am concerned that this hugely disenfranchises validators. The reality is that a single validator represents a much greater investment in the network than a single miner, but validators would be outnumbered something like 300:1, rendering them effectively powerless. A better approach would be to create weighted cohorts. For example, miners might have 40% weight, validators have 30%, routers 20%, etc.. A simple 1 vote per identity mechanism is basically handing entire control of voting to miners, which is not the best way to distribute power in the network.
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Thank you ChrisV for preparing this. I respect your desire to propel the network forward and address voting issues. Although this hip would give me an advantage in voting over some, while others would have an advantage over me (due to # of hotspots deployed), I just cant get behind this HIP. I never thought that I would say this, . . . but vote by token lock is the best option I have seen.
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AlexC
I think there is definitely room for us to optimise votes around network identities, but I am concerned that this hugely disenfranchises validators. The reality is that a single validator represents a much greater investment in the network than a single miner, but validators would be outnumbered something like 300:1, rendering them effectively powerless. A better approach would be to create weighted cohorts. For example, miners might have 40% weight, validators have 30%, routers 20%, etc.. A simple 1 vote per identity mechanism is basically handing entire control of voting to miners, which is not the best way to distribute power in the network.
deasydoesit 05/04/2022 9:41 AM
Agree 100% with this sentiment. Cross-posting my similar comment from #community-call-chat here for ease of reference.
We've thought about this at Helium Rising, but a compelling way to do voting is to sub-divide the vote into an odd number of factions, let's say "hotspot owners", "validator operators", and "HST holders", then take the outcomes in the respective factions to determine the actual vote. For example, within those factions mentioned above, votes are made and an outcome is achieved per faction. Then, the faction outcomes are bubbled up to the actual vote where a majority of factions wins. Doing voting as such would give a clearer signal to the network's true intentions, based on all participants by equal weight.
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deasydoesit
Agree 100% with this sentiment. Cross-posting my similar comment from #community-call-chat here for ease of reference.
We've thought about this at Helium Rising, but a compelling way to do voting is to sub-divide the vote into an odd number of factions, let's say "hotspot owners", "validator operators", and "HST holders", then take the outcomes in the respective factions to determine the actual vote. For example, within those factions mentioned above, votes are made and an outcome is achieved per faction. Then, the faction outcomes are bubbled up to the actual vote where a majority of factions wins. Doing voting as such would give a clearer signal to the network's true intentions, based on all participants by equal weight.
Yes! There are many different types of stakeholder in the network, but this HIP as it currently stands is weighted almost entirely in favour of miners.
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AlexC
I think there is definitely room for us to optimise votes around network identities, but I am concerned that this hugely disenfranchises validators. The reality is that a single validator represents a much greater investment in the network than a single miner, but validators would be outnumbered something like 300:1, rendering them effectively powerless. A better approach would be to create weighted cohorts. For example, miners might have 40% weight, validators have 30%, routers 20%, etc.. A simple 1 vote per identity mechanism is basically handing entire control of voting to miners, which is not the best way to distribute power in the network.
This. I would like people to start thinking about managing weights to each participants. But be mindful of time-line, it was cheaper to get a validator way back when. So if you assign a $ cost to one ecosystem, it would need to be applied to other ecosystems to keep it fair.
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AlexC
Yes! There are many different types of stakeholder in the network, but this HIP as it currently stands is weighted almost entirely in favour of miners.
deasydoesit 05/04/2022 9:45 AM
Indeed. The diversity in network participants is one of the strengths of the network as various unique, but mutually aligned, perspectives all come together to push the network forward. Sidelining everyone but hotspot owners would be a huge loss for the network's diversity.
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Fizzy
This. I would like people to start thinking about managing weights to each participants. But be mindful of time-line, it was cheaper to get a validator way back when. So if you assign a $ cost to one ecosystem, it would need to be applied to other ecosystems to keep it fair.
Yep. Perhaps it's not best to think about it in terms of $ cost, but in terms of value to the ecosystem. Everyone plays an important role here, and we need a group of voters representing miners just as much as we need a group of votes representing validators. A 300:1 weighting derived from a simple 1 identity, 1 vote system would miss important voices.
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I understand that installing hotspots is good for the ecosystem, but isn't buying HNT good for the ecosystem as well? If no one's buying it, then wouldn't the value drop?
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This would remove the stake/ voting power of all investor, Nova Labs and everyone commercially interested building on the network other than mining. I highly disagree even though it wouldn't affect me personally
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AlexC
I think there is definitely room for us to optimise votes around network identities, but I am concerned that this hugely disenfranchises validators. The reality is that a single validator represents a much greater investment in the network than a single miner, but validators would be outnumbered something like 300:1, rendering them effectively powerless. A better approach would be to create weighted cohorts. For example, miners might have 40% weight, validators have 30%, routers 20%, etc.. A simple 1 vote per identity mechanism is basically handing entire control of voting to miners, which is not the best way to distribute power in the network.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:56 AM
validators are included in the discussion. https://github.com/helium/HIP/pull/395#issuecomment-1113843366
09:57
I clearly underestimated how distracting the particulars of "hotspot" or "miner" would be in the title....lol.
09:58
what about "HIP-60 : Stake-Weighted Vote"
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Helium Mob #00 05/04/2022 9:58 AM
@🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ I like the Idea of this hip and think it's a great Idea thanks for proposing it. I know you had mentioned to add some sort of scaler for, value of vote = to reward scale of miner. I would hope we don't go this direction as it punishes anyone who lives in a major city where a majority of miners exist. As someone who has put considerable effort, time and monetary expenses into deploying professional roof deployments in an effort to provide coverage for the network. I feel very much that using reward scale in any way to contribution the value of your one miner one vote would be a critical mistake. (edited)
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gtelnet
I understand that installing hotspots is good for the ecosystem, but isn't buying HNT good for the ecosystem as well? If no one's buying it, then wouldn't the value drop?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 9:59 AM
not in and of itself. just buying and holding a token unless actively staked within the network (validators, hotspots, routers) is more or less gambling on number go up. I have yet to see a strong argument as to why speculators can't simply speculate via staked entities (hotspots/validators/routers). (edited)
10:00
The price should frankly be based on utility of the network. Price speculation is not utility.
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sla1n
This would remove the stake/ voting power of all investor, Nova Labs and everyone commercially interested building on the network other than mining. I highly disagree even though it wouldn't affect me personally
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 10:00 AM
It wouldn't. They would just have to put their HNT into hotspots, validators, or routers.
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Someone holding 10M$ worth of HNT is supposed to buy hotspots or validators to get a small share of the voting power they currently have? Imho not an option
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sla1n
Someone holding 10M$ worth of HNT is supposed to buy hotspots or validators to get a small share of the voting power they currently have? Imho not an option
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 10:02 AM
10M in validators isn't as much as you think it is
10:02
each one is 10k HNT which is currently $150,000 each
10:02
That's about 66 validators
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That's 66 validators to be run. And they are not always interested in locking up their coin for 5months
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 10:03 AM
if you're not interested in a time horizon of only 5 months then you're just further proving my point that you're not actually invested in the network
10:03
lol
10:03
even still, there are pools which allow you to unstake more frequently than 5 months if you really must do so
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I appreciate your idea of empowering the community, but I don't see this passing
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 10:03 AM
#helium-rising for example has exit liquidity more often than 5 months afaik
10:05
sorry but I get pretty frustrated with the pessimism of "I don't see this passing" sentiment, as it doesn't really invalidate the fundamental proposition, it just takes a jaded outlook on the ability to drive value through utility
10:05
and lack of faith in reasoned voting.
10:05
not a personal criticism.
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Helium Mob #00
@🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ I like the Idea of this hip and think it's a great Idea thanks for proposing it. I know you had mentioned to add some sort of scaler for, value of vote = to reward scale of miner. I would hope we don't go this direction as it punishes anyone who lives in a major city where a majority of miners exist. As someone who has put considerable effort, time and monetary expenses into deploying professional roof deployments in an effort to provide coverage for the network. I feel very much that using reward scale in any way to contribution the value of your one miner one vote would be a critical mistake. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 10:07 AM
the transmit scale suggestion was not originally mine and is only a starting point to illustrate there are likely options out there to use as metrics. although I would say isn't that what the transmit scale does to you situation as-is? Your earnings are effected by density. The whole point of hex density is to discourage people from piling on top of one another.
10:08
it's somewhat subjective of course how much value each network entity / class adds relative to others. I could see arguments in all directions.
10:08
Until light hotspots I would have said hotspots are the most valuable to the network as they're the ones doing the "boots on the ground" transference of data. But now validators are a bit more essential.
10:09
and routers have been a "public good" more or less until recently when nova started the push to have them privately owned and operated.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
not in and of itself. just buying and holding a token unless actively staked within the network (validators, hotspots, routers) is more or less gambling on number go up. I have yet to see a strong argument as to why speculators can't simply speculate via staked entities (hotspots/validators/routers). (edited)
There are a few economic reasons why a "speculator" would not want to stake. In most crypto protocols today (whether it be Helium or a DeFi protocol), staking a token often constrains liquidity. Additionally, staking a token brings upon additional tax considerations depending on jurisdiction. If a "speculator" wants to just buy and hold a token, any taxable events are deferred until they sell the token. If a "speculator" is forced to stake a token, they would then have annual taxable events (earned tokens would be considered ordinary income).
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 10:14 AM
I would ask, is "constraining liquidity" not fundamentally what validators do?
10:14
is holding not fundamentally "constraining liquidity"?
10:14
constraining liquidity is a feature, not a bug (to some extent) (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
sorry but I get pretty frustrated with the pessimism of "I don't see this passing" sentiment, as it doesn't really invalidate the fundamental proposition, it just takes a jaded outlook on the ability to drive value through utility
Agree, it's not specific to you, though. In my limited experience, this is a common comment for HIP channels. Or the opposite: "Yes" and nothing more about why yes. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 10:15 AM
apologize for my hard-headedness, I guess, but short attention spans and fickle speculative time horizons are not swaying my opinion much
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I would ask, is "constraining liquidity" not fundamentally what validators do?
It is, I do not disagree with you. All I am saying is not all HNT holders are alike. Some want to be able to transact freely and not have their tokens locked.
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KingBuckIII
It is, I do not disagree with you. All I am saying is not all HNT holders are alike. Some want to be able to transact freely and not have their tokens locked.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 10:16 AM
that'd be unfortunate for them to "want" that.
10:17
I "want" to not have to pay the government capital or income taxes. 🤷‍♂️
10:18
I ask what value does it bring to the network, not what value does it bring to private entities outside of the network.
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krby
Agree, it's not specific to you, though. In my limited experience, this is a common comment for HIP channels. Or the opposite: "Yes" and nothing more about why yes. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 10:18 AM
facts...lol.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
that'd be unfortunate for them to "want" that.
Other HNT holders have different preferences than you or I or any others. That's all I am saying. You are welcome to disagree with that.
10:21
Liquidity is quite important across any asset class, not just crypto.
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Thanks for your work on this Chris. It needs Discussion for sure.
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I just want to reemphasize that relegating voting to only hotspot owners sidelines many true network participants and ostensibly produces the same inequalities as we have today with a purely HNT based voting paradigm.
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maybe just a vote here on discord
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It’s just an inequality that favors a different faction of network participants than the current paradigm
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a monthly live come to the floor yes no vote
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I get the sentiment, but discord based voting feels highly gameable to me
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deasydoesit
I get the sentiment, but discord based voting feels highly gameable to me
true
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deasydoesit
I get the sentiment, but discord based voting feels highly gameable to me
although im picturing a community call where its voice vote?
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What if I pay a farm of people to present themselves and vote in my preferred direction?
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deasydoesit
What if I pay a farm of people to present themselves and vote in my preferred direction?
how much? Jk valid point lol im picturing the discussion of the founders of america right now like how to
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I’m of the opinion that a factionalized voting approach across at least (1) hotspot owners, (2) validator owners, and (3) HST holders would help reduce inequality, ensure all participants are equally heard, and align voting outcomes with the true network sentiments
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I personally am not a fan of hnt=vote. hotspot seams more logical but very good points on how that can be manipulated (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/04/2022 10:32 AM
Where I struggle with this, is currently those that had the opportunity to dive into this project early, with 1 well placed Hotspot, will have more voting power than I will be able to accumulate over the next 15 years with many hotspots. Because of the natural "thinning" of HNT availability, many people with great ideas, or strong reservations against ideas, will not have the same voting power as someone who (may not) have great ideas, but have trumping voting power because they had an opportunity to enter sooner than someone else. I am not trying, or supporting, the OG of Helium having weighted rights taken away, but I am saying that there are many who's rights will be smothered by early deployers of hotspots.
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Yeah, purely HNT based voting is flawed as we have all seen
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What should be avoided is that the quest to limit the current group overrepresented in voting power leads to the creation of a new group that is over or under represented. (edited)
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groot
What should be avoided is that the quest to limit the current group overrepresented in voting power leads to the creation of a new group that is over or under represented. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/04/2022 10:48 AM
I don't mean any disrespect. I am fairly new here and want to understand as much as I can because I am in this for the long haul, but I am not understanding what you are saying. I am thinking you are saying we should leave it as it is, admitting there are groups under-represented, in fear that they will continue to be under-represented. Can you clarify for the dense minded as I am? Lol. Thanks (edited)
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Just putting forward some food for thought regarding a viable alternative to HIP60. Escrowed voting shows promise, because it gives the hotspot owner a method of increasing their vote power by a factor of 100!!! It allows everyone to have a chance in having a weighty vote, while at the same time inherently contributing to the value of the network and ecosystem.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I don't mean any disrespect. I am fairly new here and want to understand as much as I can because I am in this for the long haul, but I am not understanding what you are saying. I am thinking you are saying we should leave it as it is, admitting there are groups under-represented, in fear that they will continue to be under-represented. Can you clarify for the dense minded as I am? Lol. Thanks (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 05/04/2022 10:54 AM
@groot has done some awesome queries for past votes, displaying who voted for what (splitted in validators and non validators for example). His reasoning is not unfounded (edited)
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deasydoesit
Yeah, purely HNT based voting is flawed as we have all seen
check out this article. There are some similarities here that are proposed in the Escrowed voting discussed in HIP51. Semantics are different, but the concept is similar. https://thedefiant.io/votelocking-governance-tokens-curve/ (edited)
Vote locking governance tokens is the new hotness for decentralized finance protocols.
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AndrewsMD
check out this article. There are some similarities here that are proposed in the Escrowed voting discussed in HIP51. Semantics are different, but the concept is similar. https://thedefiant.io/votelocking-governance-tokens-curve/ (edited)
Still seems to favor large HNT holders above all others. An HNT holding venture entity, like Multicoin Capital for example, is already long on HNT so would have a greater incentive to lock their tokens than a typical holder with shorter term perspective.
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deasydoesit
Still seems to favor large HNT holders above all others. An HNT holding venture entity, like Multicoin Capital for example, is already long on HNT so would have a greater incentive to lock their tokens than a typical holder with shorter term perspective.
Does the collective community have more HNT voting power than Multicoin Cap, . . . if they voted and escrowed their vote? (edited)
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I guess I just don't understand how the mere presence of an escrow addresses the known issues with a purely HNT based voting scheme. (edited)
11:28
For example, does the presence of an escrow dilute the existing voting power possessed by large HNT holders in a way that makes voting more equitable? I would argue no, and if anything, the opposite, as it would only serve to amplify the power of those with "disposable HNT" e.g., those who are already rich and can lock their HNT to see the network shaped for their intended outcomes.
11:29
Maybe if the locking duration was correlated to the amount of HNT held, and maybe that's something you're suggesting, but a simple locking mechanism doesn't move the needle imo
11:30
All fun ideas to brainstorm though 😄
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deasydoesit
For example, does the presence of an escrow dilute the existing voting power possessed by large HNT holders in a way that makes voting more equitable? I would argue no, and if anything, the opposite, as it would only serve to amplify the power of those with "disposable HNT" e.g., those who are already rich and can lock their HNT to see the network shaped for their intended outcomes.
Can't really argue against what you are saying. For a long time, I vehemently opposed Vote by Token lock. But I have since changed my opinion. Voting escrow or vote by token lock is imperfect, but for the life of me, I can't find a more equitable way. Just because I have a fleet of hosted hotspots should not give me more vote power than someone with one hotspot who may have invested 10x more than me into this project. Locking it up, means they are staked and in it for the long game, not a quick buck. The voter who has escrowed their rewards, is more "vested" in the success of the ecosystem than the one who has not locked up their rewards. Besides, the new proposed system adds inherent value to the token as well. HIP60 can not be argued to add value to the intrinsic worth of HNT.
11:38
. . . . For anyone who has not had the time to read HIP51, consider the following excerpt. "A user’s voting power is determined by 1) the amount of HNT they lock up with, and 2) the amount of time they commit to locking up their HNT. The structure applies a linear multiplier of time to the amount of HNT locked up in the voting contract. For the maximum amount of four years, users receive 100x the veHNT. For the minimum amount of a six month lockup, users receive 1x the veHNT. Note that veHNT is fully non-transferable, and represented as a non-fungible coupon in the user’s HNT address." (edited)
11:40
. . .For example, suppose A, B, and C all choose to lock up 1000 HNT: A chooses to lock up tokens for the minimum required duration of six months, and thus receives veHNT in the amount of 1000 B chooses to lock up tokens for twenty-seven months, and thus receives veHNT in the amount of 50 * 1000 = 50,000 C chooses to lock up tokens for forty-eight months, and thus receives veHNT in the amount of 100 * 1000 = 100,000 (edited)
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deasydoesit
I just want to reemphasize that relegating voting to only hotspot owners sidelines many true network participants and ostensibly produces the same inequalities as we have today with a purely HNT based voting paradigm.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 11:42 AM
This proposal suggests the constraining of HIP voting (heliumvote.com) to reflect the active "stake" network participants' voting wallets have in the form of onboarded hotspots. Ed: r...
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deasydoesit
I get the sentiment, but discord based voting feels highly gameable to me
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 11:48 AM
That's how voting was originally done (referred to as "straw poll" in HIP). Then the current methodology was an improvement. It added the fact that you actually had to sign the vote with an actual helium wallet private key, and increased voter awareness since votes were now pushed out via the official helium app. However now the issue being alleged is that you shouldn't be able to influence the vote based on how much of any asset you have access to (any asset because obviously we're not just talking about HNTor even just USD; with swaps and dex etc just about any value could be swapped into HNT for any given vote). Now this HIP only intends to say it would further impose some kind of [weighted] definition of who is adding value to the network and how valuable is said role's contribution relative to the other roles of network utility. (edited)
11:51
It seems worth consideration as well that there is some pseudo "proof of work" in the fact that under the proposed changes you would need to demonstrate some sort of material contribution to the network to have a weighted say in governance. So far I've yet to be swayed much on the opinion that LP is a viable network contribution beyond the point where the network is able to economically sustain itself. ("Point of Diminishing Returns on Capital") (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
That's how voting was originally done (referred to as "straw poll" in HIP). Then the current methodology was an improvement. It added the fact that you actually had to sign the vote with an actual helium wallet private key, and increased voter awareness since votes were now pushed out via the official helium app. However now the issue being alleged is that you shouldn't be able to influence the vote based on how much of any asset you have access to (any asset because obviously we're not just talking about HNTor even just USD; with swaps and dex etc just about any value could be swapped into HNT for any given vote). Now this HIP only intends to say it would further impose some kind of [weighted] definition of who is adding value to the network and how valuable is said role's contribution relative to the other roles of network utility. (edited)
The metric or definition of "adding value to the network" is more than just how many hotspots I deploy. It's only one variable. Being "vested" is a variable that is not fully addressed in HIP60. Truly respect your work and effort though. No disrespect intended. None in the least 🙂 (edited)
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AndrewsMD
The metric or definition of "adding value to the network" is more than just how many hotspots I deploy. It's only one variable. Being "vested" is a variable that is not fully addressed in HIP60. Truly respect your work and effort though. No disrespect intended. None in the least 🙂 (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 11:52 AM
Not in disagreement as best I can tell. 👍
11:53
Adding value is pretty easily defined though, IMO, as "utility".
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Had to put in the word "fully" for the hotspot owner is in essence vested to a quantifiable degree. This amount is known for we know the cost of the hotspot (on average) and we who place antenna's know the work that is involved 🙂 (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 11:54 AM
The utility of raw capital becomes less and less over time as the network matures. All I'm saying. Not saying it doesn't have a role in seed and support.
11:55
And IMO even then capital can be invested in other private equity vehicles that are contributing utility themselves.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 11:57 AM
votes should be: 1 per (active) hotspot (perhaps some thought as to a scaling mechanism to weigh the voting power to the usefulness of the 'spot to the network) X per Validator (TBD weighted vs hotspots, taking into account the 10k HNT entry point as well as the built in "scaling" that validators have) ? for Routers (need more info, but sounds like a valid case due to being a useful network component)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 11:57 AM
11:58
All I'm saying is what efforts are the holders contributing..? 🧐
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Routers are essential to the network, without them we're just pumping PoC around. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:00 PM
The hotspots are transferring & receiving data. The validators are securing the data and forming consensus. The routers are directing data flows to endpoints. Token holders are doing...??? (edited)
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groot
Routers are essential to the network, without them we're just pumping PoC around. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 12:00 PM
Accounted for in my suggestion
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Accounted for in my suggestion
I know, I was just upping their contribution from useful to essential 👍 (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
And IMO even then capital can be invested in other private equity vehicles that are contributing utility themselves.
Assume for example, that you buy 10 hotspots at $500 each. And they are properly deployed. Since you couldn't get more hotspots in a timely fashion, . you decided to buy $5,000 worth of HNT and stake it. Should your vote count the same as someone who bought 10 hotspots, bought zero HNT, and staked a zero amount of HNT rewards?
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AndrewsMD
Assume for example, that you buy 10 hotspots at $500 each. And they are properly deployed. Since you couldn't get more hotspots in a timely fashion, . you decided to buy $5,000 worth of HNT and stake it. Should your vote count the same as someone who bought 10 hotspots, bought zero HNT, and staked a zero amount of HNT rewards?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:01 PM
It depends on the calculations mentioned above.
12:02
Weights of each type of network participants.
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12:02
type/class not sure what we're calling them actually
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AndrewsMD
Assume for example, that you buy 10 hotspots at $500 each. And they are properly deployed. Since you couldn't get more hotspots in a timely fashion, . you decided to buy $5,000 worth of HNT and stake it. Should your vote count the same as someone who bought 10 hotspots, bought zero HNT, and staked a zero amount of HNT rewards?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 12:03 PM
Stake as in a Validator? That's up to the staking company if they are going to give votes to their users.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:03 PM
The easiest way to weight them, I think, would be to peg them to DC, which is constant.
12:04
There is a cost to onboarding & asserting a hotspot in DC. There's a cost to stake a validator in DC. Routers use DC to channel data flows.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Stake as in a Validator? That's up to the staking company if they are going to give votes to their users.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:06 PM
Yes exactly it's the fact that different private entities can run parallel internal governance mechanisms and "compete" with each other for delegated stake
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Gotta run. Good luck on the hip. If you make changes to the HIP, please, please, please notify me so that I may revisit this. For now, I have drawn my conclusions based on what I have read. But I am in no way closed minded. So if changes occur, . . . please let me know. Kudo's again for writing the hip and making us think further of ways to improve voting and ultimately, . . . the ecosystem. Mad respect 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:06 PM
It creates a kind of market
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
The hotspots are transferring & receiving data. The validators are securing the data and forming consensus. The routers are directing data flows to endpoints. Token holders are doing...??? (edited)
Apes stronger together.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 12:32 PM
Speaking of apes, the 800lb gorilla in the room: How would we vote on this HIP? The large HNT holders will just vote in their own interest to maintain control in the current voting system that community never voted for. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Speaking of apes, the 800lb gorilla in the room: How would we vote on this HIP? The large HNT holders will just vote in their own interest to maintain control in the current voting system that community never voted for. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:39 PM
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12:39
😂
12:40
See: Chain Wars
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Speaking of apes, the 800lb gorilla in the room: How would we vote on this HIP? The large HNT holders will just vote in their own interest to maintain control in the current voting system that community never voted for. (edited)
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 12:54 PM
Heliumvote works on any metric, just most are using hnt as the value for the vote, it could be hotspot/validator count
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12:54
Or some fair metric, not sure what would be best there
12:55
I'd be worried about representation for those who just hold hnt if that was done tho
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Or some fair metric, not sure what would be best there
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 12:56 PM
Short of KYC, yeah, it's awkward. 😉
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'd be worried about representation for those who just hold hnt if that was done tho
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:57 PM
Why hold and not either set up a hotspot or stake in a pool
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 12:57 PM
Validator lockup times
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:57 PM
That's what the pool is for
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 12:57 PM
That and maybe they run out of locations
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'd be worried about representation for those who just hold hnt if that was done tho
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 12:57 PM
Those that are just holding HNT are not a functional part of the network 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 12:58 PM
It doesn't solve the whale problem just moves the definition of who controls to one group or another, at least right now a metric for vote can be chosen
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:58 PM
You can't both argue that "holding" is a value add and continue to maintain that HNT is not a security.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 12:58 PM
Only effects validators? Use that for vote metric
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:58 PM
It bears no utility.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 12:59 PM
Holding does for "confidence"
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:59 PM
So if we're going down this road let's all just agree that it's a security?
12:59
Seems unlikely.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 12:59 PM
The other bit your missing is companies using the network will hold hnt to burn, don't they get a say?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 12:59 PM
Doing work to build the network builds "confidence"
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:00 PM
For a HIP that defines how voting should be, I feel the voting method for this will have to fall to the Foundation.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:00 PM
Why all the defense of spending money and doing literally nothing else?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:00 PM
There are network participants that hodl and don't want to run gateways/validators
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The other bit your missing is companies using the network will hold hnt to burn, don't they get a say?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:00 PM
Yes, as routers.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:00 PM
Not everyone runs a router
13:01
Do you as iowe?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There are network participants that hodl and don't want to run gateways/validators
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:01 PM
Then they don't want to vote ..
13:01
Lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There are network participants that hodl and don't want to run gateways/validators
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:01 PM
How exactly are they a network participant?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:01 PM
They sell services using the network
13:01
Which we're going to get more and more of (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They sell services using the network
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:02 PM
The mall kiosk selling cellphones is not a network participant 😉
13:02
Users != network owners
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:03 PM
If they're holding to run routers for their services then they'll be all good they'll have a say as routers. 😌
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:03 PM
They're the most important part of the network lol
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
If they're holding to run routers for their services then they'll be all good they'll have a say as routers. 😌
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:03 PM
So as iowe do you run a router?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:03 PM
We are working on it, yes.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:03 PM
Ok but for months you havnt been, maybe years now?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:03 PM
Won't have a choice either way after the year long grandfather into public.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:04 PM
Is that not participating in the network?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:04 PM
No, because we also deploy hotspots.
13:04
Keep coming though.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
They're the most important part of the network lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:04 PM
The network is functional without them in a pure sense. Will a car engine run without a driver? Yes. Is it going to go anywhere? No.
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Haha this is getting comical
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:05 PM
I don't get to vote in Verizon just for using their service.
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Bringing in regulatory fears that are irrelevant (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I don't get to vote in Verizon just for using their service.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:05 PM
Verizon isn't decentralised lol
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HG
Bringing in regulatory fears that are irrelevant (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:05 PM
Aren't relevant lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Verizon isn't decentralised lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:05 PM
Doesn't matter. Users don't get votes. Network owners do. (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Verizon isn't decentralised lol
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:06 PM
Neither is helium, currently
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:06 PM
So as a service giving you value for your install, they shouldn't get a say in the network?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Aren't relevant lol
Pardon are you correcting my grammar haha (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Verizon isn't decentralised lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:06 PM
The decentralized is about the owners
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
So as a service giving you value for your install, they shouldn't get a say in the network?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:06 PM
no. You are a consumer, not a network owner.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
So as a service giving you value for your install, they shouldn't get a say in the network?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:07 PM
Depends, are they installing their own hotspots or someone else's? Are they staking validators? Are they running a router?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:07 PM
Not everyone will be happy with a 5 month stake
13:08
But id sure buy a few hotspots and shove them in the cupboard if it was the only way I'd get to vote
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HG
Pardon are you correcting my grammar haha (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:08 PM
No laughing that you think the conversation about whether helium is a security is irrelevant to what utility speculating holders contribute or don't contribute to network utility
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Not everyone will be happy with a 5 month stake
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:08 PM
Then they should install hotspots. Or run routers. If they want votes, they should be building the network.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:08 PM
It's the conversation that the turtle doesn't want us having
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
But id sure buy a few hotspots and shove them in the cupboard if it was the only way I'd get to vote
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:08 PM
Active hotspots get votes, not just purchasing some.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:09 PM
What counts as active?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
What counts as active?
And how long does it need to be active.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
What counts as active?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:09 PM
Come on Neil... you know.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Then they should install hotspots. Or run routers. If they want votes, they should be building the network.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:09 PM
He's insinuating that because they don't own the hotspots they won't get a say
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:09 PM
Because with an attenuator I can easily get a decent set of voting hotspots
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:09 PM
Or at least seems to be
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
No laughing that you think the conversation about whether helium is a security is irrelevant to what utility speculating holders contribute or don't contribute to network utility
Commodities are purchased for speculation and are not securities
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:09 PM
I'm saying this networks not just about hotspot owners
13:10
It's about the businesses growing usage on the network too
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
I'm saying this networks not just about hotspot owners
But I am important.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:10 PM
And that everyone's aligned in that with hnt and using that to vote
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HG
Commodities are purchased for speculation and are not securities
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:10 PM
Helium is not a commodity
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
It's about the businesses growing usage on the network too
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:10 PM
Which are covered by routers.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Which are covered by routers.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:11 PM
Not always
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And if I have to sell my HNT every week to survive, I should still be getting atleast a single voting power because of my hotspot.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Not always
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:11 PM
When is it not
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Helium is not a commodity
It seems closer to a commodity that anything else
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:11 PM
Educate me
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HG
It seems closer to a commodity that anything else
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:11 PM
How so?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Which are covered by routers.
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:11 PM
You don't have to run a console to get more than 10 devices remember
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:12 PM
We're literally saying here, per @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io et al, speculating holders should have a say
13:12
There's a name for that
13:12
It's called securities
13:12
Aka "stocks"
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
How so?
It’s purchased and has utility outside of itself
13:12
It is used to transfer data
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Because with an attenuator I can easily get a decent set of voting hotspots
With a market, I can easily get a decent set of voting HNT...?
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HG
It’s purchased and has utility outside of itself
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:13 PM
This is only true if the only people who have governing input are network utilities
13:13
Once you bring in speculators that aren't doing "work", it's a security.
13:13
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Fizzy
With a market, I can easily get a decent set of voting HNT...?
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:13 PM
With the used market being what it is I can get a pretty big vote going too for less than a validator
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:13 PM
It's right there man. "Derived from the efforts of others"
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
This is only true if the only people who have governing input are network utilities
It’s actually true in all circumstances. It is literally a way to pay for data transfer by definition (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:13 PM
Try arguing "it brings confidence" to the SEC
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
With the used market being what it is I can get a pretty big vote going too for less than a validator
But not less then a HNT (hotspot vs hnt value). :3 (edited)
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HG
It’s actually true in all circumstances. It is literally a way to pay for data transfer by definition (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:17 PM
You're missing my point. Yes transferring, routing, validating are network utilities. If that was the only place that value was being extracted from, you'd be correct. But once you say that there are entities putting in investment capital, doing nothing else besides that, and then making a profit, you've just described a security.
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People can buy corn with no intent of using it and to sell it to someone else and it’s still a commodity
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:17 PM
Point again being, vanilla wallet holders need to be removed from governance.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
You're missing my point. Yes transferring, routing, validating are network utilities. If that was the only place that value was being extracted from, you'd be correct. But once you say that there are entities putting in investment capital, doing nothing else besides that, and then making a profit, you've just described a security.
No I said that the they are supporting the value of HNT
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:17 PM
That's not going to fly with Feds man
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13:17
Lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
Because with an attenuator I can easily get a decent set of voting hotspots
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:18 PM
Non-issue. Cheating hotspots already have voting power via stolen HNT. 🤷‍♂️
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:18 PM
I'm going to invest in Tesla and say I'm supporting the value of Teslas
13:18
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I'm going to invest in Tesla and say I'm supporting the value of Teslas
It’s secured ownership in a business
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Let’s please keep the howey test out of here, it’s not relevant, introduces risk in the discussion, and no one is qualified to really discuss (unless there is a capital markets attorney in the room)
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capcom
Let’s please keep the howey test out of here, it’s not relevant, introduces risk in the discussion, and no one is qualified to really discuss (unless there is a capital markets attorney in the room)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:19 PM
Maybe it's time to get capital markets attorneys in the room (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
With the used market being what it is I can get a pretty big vote going too for less than a validator
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:19 PM
How so? The thought is to weight validators vs hotspots voting power in a fair way.
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Guy is bombing his own HIP
facepalm 1
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:19 PM
Happy to hear how is not relevant though
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capcom
Let’s please keep the howey test out of here, it’s not relevant, introduces risk in the discussion, and no one is qualified to really discuss (unless there is a capital markets attorney in the room)
Someone knows someone who must know a lot of other lawyers 🙃
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Having spent several years and millions of $ on the topic, I can safely say nothing said so far is accurate and we should just stop talking about. We’ve also generally blanket banned discussion of this topic on this server and I don’t want to change that
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Or just skip the topic in its entirety since it is just a bunch of smoke to distract from the actual discussion.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:20 PM
Well if that's the case they I'm sure we're all good because you've sorted it out! No harm in discussing then, no? 😀👍
13:20
I got it
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Haha lash out!!
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capcom
Having spent several years and millions of $ on the topic, I can safely say nothing said so far is accurate and we should just stop talking about. We’ve also generally blanket banned discussion of this topic on this server and I don’t want to change that
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:20 PM
yeah, we're edging way too far into the abyss. 😉
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:20 PM
The whole fundamental ask here is clarity
13:20
So
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
yeah, we're edging way too far into the abyss. 😉
We’re deep in the abyss my friend
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groot
Or just skip the topic in its entirety since it is just a bunch of smoke to distract from the actual discussion.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:21 PM
By all means proceed with discussion. 👍
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capcom
We’re deep in the abyss my friend
Welcome to the dark side, how relevant considering the date.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:22 PM
Something preferably not about typos or grammar
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groot
Welcome to the dark side, how relevant considering the date.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:22 PM
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Something preferably not about typos or grammar
Not grammar, word choice (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:23 PM
It's just weird that you say nothing said is accurate and then don't hazard what is supposedly accurate, I guess..??
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:23 PM
Groot is right, let's get back to the core issue rather than these tangents 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:23 PM
Like I said feel free to make corrections
13:23
Seems like there's not really any significant disagreement up until the question of do wallets alone get votes
13:23
Tbh
13:24
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:24 PM
There's also the manufacturers to think about, power to onboard keys, run industrial sized farms, have a huge vote, deeper had 10k ish gaming before they were caught?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Seems like there's not really any significant disagreement up until the question of do wallets alone get votes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:24 PM
wallets alone to vote? That would not work due to the ease of just spinning up wallets.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There's also the manufacturers to think about, power to onboard keys, run industrial sized farms, have a huge vote, deeper had 10k ish gaming before they were caught?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:24 PM
Again, gaming is not part of the discussion here.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:25 PM
I know, I'm talking about hnt holders lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:25 PM
But they had months of voting power before they were caught
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There's also the manufacturers to think about, power to onboard keys, run industrial sized farms, have a huge vote, deeper had 10k ish gaming before they were caught?
Actually a great point hashc0de also pointed out 👍
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There's also the manufacturers to think about, power to onboard keys, run industrial sized farms, have a huge vote, deeper had 10k ish gaming before they were caught?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:25 PM
You should take that up with the MOC
13:25
👍
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:25 PM
The issue of gaming is not changed by this HIP and thus isn't relevant 🙂
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Worst HIP of all time!!!!
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
You should take that up with the MOC
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:25 PM
The pocswg is churning don't worry
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Not really, it is directly relevant to the discussion since it isn't gaming that's worrying it is the fact that manufacturers can sway a vote by onboarding a lot of hotspots.
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HG
Worst HIP of all time!!!!
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:26 PM
Definitely a laudible contribution! 😂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:26 PM
But it happens, just saying
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:26 PM
Thank you!
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:26 PM
There are more deeper like targets
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
The pocswg is churning don't worry
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:26 PM
You are literally the one who stated being worried, what
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
There are more deeper like targets
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:26 PM
again, gaming is not a relevant factor in this. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
again, gaming is not a relevant factor in this. 🙂
Again, it isn't the gaming, it is a vendor with the ability to onboard hotspots.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:27 PM
It's just "whataboutism" and is distracting
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:27 PM
I guess we wouldn't call buying votes gaming 😂
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Superficially written
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HG
Superficially written
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:27 PM
Sorry you have to think about contributing to the conversation
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groot
Again, it isn't the gaming, it is a vendor with the ability to onboard hotspots.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:28 PM
And anti-gaming HIPs are taking care of that. Not a relevant factor in this discussion.
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If we use 'buying votes' as an argument for this HIP you must equally consider 'onboarding hotspots' as an argument against this HIP.
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groot
If we use 'buying votes' as an argument for this HIP you must equally consider 'onboarding hotspots' as an argument against this HIP.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:28 PM
Buying hotspots adds value to the utility of the network
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Buying hotspots adds value to the utility of the network
Not buying hotspots, onboarding keys.
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HG
Superficially written
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:28 PM
Either add useful thoughts to the discussion, or just stop please.
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HG
Superficially written
I’m ready for hips of this quality (from our friend Jeremy):: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0119.mediawiki
Bitcoin Improvement Proposals. Contribute to bitcoin/bips development by creating an account on GitHub.
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groot
If we use 'buying votes' as an argument for this HIP you must equally consider 'onboarding hotspots' as an argument against this HIP.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:30 PM
Are those onboarded hotspots installed and adding to the network?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Are those onboarded hotspots installed and adding to the network?
For a few days, maybe.
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When @capcom starts throwing shade you know it’s getting real
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groot
For a few days, maybe.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:32 PM
So you're suggesting a buffer of sorts until a hotspot has voting rights?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:32 PM
So you think someone is going to spend millions of dollars onboarding hotspots to... Throw them away? (edited)
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jhbr821
When @capcom starts throwing shade you know it’s getting real
No shade intended! Genuine hope there, we should all aspire to create proposals with that kind of depth. It’s very impressive
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jhbr821
When @capcom starts throwing shade you know it’s getting real
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:33 PM
Nah. He loves to throw a little shade here and there. 🌶️ lol
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capcom
No shade intended! Genuine hope there, we should all aspire to create proposals with that kind of depth. It’s very impressive
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:33 PM
We can't all be engineers 😉
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We all need some shade from time to time lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So you're suggesting a buffer of sorts until a hotspot has voting rights?
Not really, I'm saying consider the issue.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
So you think someone is going to spend millions of dollars onboarding hotspots to... Throw them away? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:34 PM
Nah... sounds like they are suggesting a maker would spin up a bunch just to sway a vote, right @groot ?
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groot
Not really, I'm saying consider the issue.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:35 PM
I'm not sure the issue is clear 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Nah... sounds like they are suggesting a maker would spin up a bunch just to sway a vote, right @groot ?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:35 PM
They said "for a few days" (edited)
13:35
Suggesting they would be useless after that utility wise
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:37 PM
deeper had months of 10k hotspots gaming
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
They said "for a few days" (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:37 PM
I wouldn't focus on that part. 🙂
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:37 PM
nov-feb? was it?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
deeper had months of 10k hotspots gaming
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:38 PM
Yes?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:38 PM
so they had the voting weight of 10k hotspots for 3-4 months
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Oooh I like this HIP, but my guess it that big HNT owners wouldn't vote in favor of losing their dominant voting position
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:38 PM
And they can currently use all that stolen HNT to vote with.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:38 PM
sure
13:38
but you have to consider both sides
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Ih8mypp
Oooh I like this HIP, but my guess it that big HNT owners wouldn't vote in favor of losing their dominant voting position
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:39 PM
The community never approved voting with HNT in the first place... 😉
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:39 PM
the hip authors actually decide what metric to use
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
so they had the voting weight of 10k hotspots for 3-4 months
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:39 PM
Yes, they did. Not sure what the point is you're trying to make.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:40 PM
that for 3-4 months, unknown to us, they could have swayed a vote
13:40
and it could happen again in the future
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strawpolls lets gooooo
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
the hip authors actually decide what metric to use
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:41 PM
No.... you can't write a HIP that defines its own passage. "This HIP will pass if the sun doesn't rise tomorrow" lol
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:41 PM
you can use any on chain metric, its just been hnt so far
13:41
it could be count of hotspots, or count of validators
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
that for 3-4 months, unknown to us, they could have swayed a vote
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:41 PM
And they can sway a vote now also. If there is no difference, there is no relevance.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:41 PM
so I think the point made above incidentally or otherwise is you're contradicting your own point by saying "the existing gamed HNT can already do what you're suggesting might happen with a MOC vulnerability"
13:41
it already is the case today
13:41
so at the very worst we're in "the same position"
13:42
hence the debate shifts back to, "which is better, including network participants or arbitrary wallet balance"
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:42 PM
same thing about the whales, just moving it from hnt holders to hotspot hosting companies controlling the vote
13:42
not solving anything
13:42
just moving the vote power from one group to another
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
that for 3-4 months, unknown to us, they could have swayed a vote
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:42 PM
Also, you're just focusing on Hotspots. those 10k deeper hotspots are not enough to sway a vote with ~800k hotspots, routers, and validators.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
it could be count of hotspots, or count of validators
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:42 PM
so let's do that Troll
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Nah... sounds like they are suggesting a maker would spin up a bunch just to sway a vote, right @groot ?
Correct.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:43 PM
sure, when there is a vote that only effects hotspot hosts, lets use hotspot count as a metric
13:43
that can be done today
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groot
Correct.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:43 PM
I mean, that really goes back to the same situation of trusted HIP19 makers. It's not foolproof as we've already seen. 🙂 (edited)
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Also, using denylist(s) to throw out votes from hotspots centralizes a lot of voting power at the list creators.
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groot
Also, using denylist(s) to throw out votes from hotspots centralizes a lot of voting power at the list creators.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:44 PM
but we should use it to throw out miners?
13:44
🤔
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groot
Also, using denylist(s) to throw out votes from hotspots centralizes a lot of voting power at the list creators.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:44 PM
You mean the validators? (post HIP55) (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
but we should use it to throw out miners?
Either you don’t and all known gamers get votes, or you do and you have essentially a few parties holding veto rights on a lot of votes.
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What if we had the three groups (hotspots, validators, routers) all perform their own vote (weights to be determined). These overall votes will be used to approve a HIP. When a HIP is sent up for a vote it must be determined by the HIP-7 Editor which parties are affected. Those parties are the only ones used in regards to approving a HIP. They need to be in majority to have it pass. The parties not involved and HNT holders (staked or like wise) can vote no against a HIP as a checks and balance mechanism.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:45 PM
who are the list creators
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groot
Either you don’t and all known gamers get votes, or you do and you have essentially a few parties holding veto rights on a lot of votes.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:45 PM
the list creators don't have veto rights.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You mean the validators? (post HIP55) (edited)
No I mean list creators.
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groot
No I mean list creators.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:46 PM
who creates the list?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
who are the list creators
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:46 PM
hip40 deny lists will be run by community members
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groot
No I mean list creators.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:46 PM
The lists don't mean anything without validators using them, so the power with with the validators
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
hip40 deny lists will be run by community members
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:46 PM
sounds like problem solved to me
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The lists don't mean anything without validators using them, so the power with with the validators
Sure, if you are going to break down every argument that way the true power lies with the power company.
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Anthonyra
What if we had the three groups (hotspots, validators, routers) all perform their own vote (weights to be determined). These overall votes will be used to approve a HIP. When a HIP is sent up for a vote it must be determined by the HIP-7 Editor which parties are affected. Those parties are the only ones used in regards to approving a HIP. They need to be in majority to have it pass. The parties not involved and HNT holders (staked or like wise) can vote no against a HIP as a checks and balance mechanism.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:47 PM
not a bad start but if you're leaving it up to the HIP-7 editor that's the definition of centralized control lol
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Or maybe Intel and AMD
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
not a bad start but if you're leaving it up to the HIP-7 editor that's the definition of centralized control lol
We already do?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:48 PM
we already do a lot of centralized things
13:48
😆
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I'd say a pre-vote to determine affected parties would work but what if we work with what we got right now?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
we already do a lot of centralized things
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 1:48 PM
we want to be doing less of that, not more of it
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Anthonyra
I'd say a pre-vote to determine affected parties would work but what if we work with what we got right now?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:48 PM
it's votes all the way down 🐢
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groot
Sure, if you are going to break down every argument that way the true power lies with the power company.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:48 PM
It's the functional and correct argument. The list creators don't have any power.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
it's votes all the way down 🐢
Welcome to a decentralized system
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Anthonyra
I'd say a pre-vote to determine affected parties would work but what if we work with what we got right now?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:49 PM
By using HNT voting? We already know how that goes.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:49 PM
too bad every hotspot doesn't run it's own copy of the blockchain and reconcile consensus by vote of which chain you operate... 🤔
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By using the sub-groups to vote on if a HIP should be voted on and by whom. Hotspots will place a vote saying if they care or not, followed by validators, and then followed by routers. The HNT stake voters will only be able to vote no in my offered alternative
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So HNT voting is bad, but centralizing the same power at a list creator or validator if you want to go that route is better? The alternative is letting gamers vote with denied hotspots. You can say all you want about HNT voting but at least it is straightforward
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groot
So HNT voting is bad, but centralizing the same power at a list creator or validator if you want to go that route is better? The alternative is letting gamers vote with denied hotspots. You can say all you want about HNT voting but at least it is straightforward
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:52 PM
idk who is suggesting this it's certainly not me
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
idk who is suggesting this it's certainly not me
There were two options, one of them must be true if you vote with hotspot count
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groot
So HNT voting is bad, but centralizing the same power at a list creator or validator if you want to go that route is better? The alternative is letting gamers vote with denied hotspots. You can say all you want about HNT voting but at least it is straightforward
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:53 PM
List creators don't have power. Not sure why you keep mentioning them.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
List creators don't have power. Not sure why you keep mentioning them.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:54 PM
I think what's meant possibly is whoever is deciding whether to approve a removal or an addition?
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Vote 1 - Temperature vote, all groups vote on if they care or not. As long as one party cares it goes to vote. All parties who vote yes have to vote again. Vote 2 - Those parties who voted no at the temperature vote can skip and live a happy life or vote no as a checks and balance. Those who voted yes in the temperature check need to vote again. What ever is the majority is the result of the HIP vote. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I think what's meant possibly is whoever is deciding whether to approve a removal or an addition?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:54 PM
The list is useless unless the validators use it.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:54 PM
multiple rounds of votes just makes it feel like diffusing the same problem into multiple rounds
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The list is useless unless the validators use it.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:55 PM
right but who decides whether the validators use it
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
right but who decides whether the validators use it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:55 PM
The validators do
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:55 PM
it's kind of like in a political party if the party itself chooses the candidates, do you really get free choice?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
multiple rounds of votes just makes it feel like diffusing the same problem into multiple rounds
How so?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:56 PM
no, your choice has been artificially constrained by an in group of elite positioned entities who choose the choice
👎 1
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
it's kind of like in a political party if the party itself chooses the candidates, do you really get free choice?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:56 PM
The validators are not one entity
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
List creators don't have power. Not sure why you keep mentioning them.
If you want to stick to 'validators have the power', also fine but that means that during a 10000 block period (= 333 consensus groups) you only need to have 1 that validates your vote. Unless all validators agree on denying a certain hotspot the chance of succeeding to vote with a denied hotspot is huge. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
no, your choice has been artificially constrained by an in group of elite positioned entities who choose the choice
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:56 PM
not saying this is what's happening, just seems to be what is meant by "the list creators"
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groot
If you want to stick to 'validators have the power', also fine but that means that during a 10000 block period (= 333 consensus groups) you only need to have 1 that validates your vote. Unless all validators agree on denying a certain hotspot the chance of succeeding to vote with a denied hotspot is huge. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:57 PM
no one group or individual "has the power"
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
no one group or individual "has the power"
Context...
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groot
If you want to stick to 'validators have the power', also fine but that means that during a 10000 block period (= 333 consensus groups) you only need to have 1 that validates your vote. Unless all validators agree on denying a certain hotspot the chance of succeeding to vote with a denied hotspot is huge. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:57 PM
That would be the same issue with POC transactions too, but that's not the case.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That would be the same issue with POC transactions too, but that's not the case.
Yes it is the case, but with PoC transactions you will have won 1 transaction in 10k blocks while with your vote you have won 100% of your goal.
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HIP-42 went through a temperature vote already by the way. If you want this truly decentralized then multiple rounds is the best choice. Having 2 isn't going to kill people. If it is maybe they should fork Helium and do it their way? 🤷‍♂️
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:58 PM
I'm arbitrarily making these numbers up, but e.g. 1 vote per Hotspot 5 votes per Router 10 votes per Validator
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Anthonyra
HIP-42 went through a temperature vote already by the way. If you want this truly decentralized then multiple rounds is the best choice. Having 2 isn't going to kill people. If it is maybe they should fork Helium and do it their way? 🤷‍♂️
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 1:58 PM
I just don't see what two rounds adds that one round doesn't accomplish. It just seems to filter out maybe a few people who can't be bothered enough to be present at each of them
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groot
Yes it is the case, but with PoC transactions you will have won 1 transaction in 10k blocks while with your vote you have won 100% of your goal.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 1:59 PM
Ah, you're talking about the duration of the vote. Ok, just make it so that if the voting hotspot on that HIP is denied once, it's auto-denied any other time it tries to vote on that HIP. Solved. 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Ah, you're talking about the duration of the vote. Ok, just make it so that if the voting hotspot on that HIP is denied once, it's auto-denied any other time it tries to vote on that HIP. Solved. 🙂 (edited)
Not at all solved, which consensus group is going to be the one. By the way, if you're on that list you can figure out which validators do let you through and cast your vote when they're in charge.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I just don't see what two rounds adds that one round doesn't accomplish. It just seems to filter out maybe a few people who can't be bothered enough to be present at each of them
Caring about something is not exactly the same as approving it... but I suppose if that doesn't matter you can combine the two
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I'm arbitrarily making these numbers up, but e.g. 1 vote per Hotspot 5 votes per Router 10 votes per Validator
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:01 PM
only thing with this is determining what the weights are based on. Some primary factor that all of them share somehow
14:01
why I went with DC
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groot
Not at all solved, which consensus group is going to be the one. By the way, if you're on that list you can figure out which validators do let you through and cast your vote when they're in charge.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:01 PM
Whichever CG happens to be the first once to review the vote from that hotspot. It's random.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Whichever CG happens to be the first once to review the vote from that hotspot. It's random.
Like I said, I'll just wait until I see a consensus group made up of the right validators.
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groot
Not at all solved, which consensus group is going to be the one. By the way, if you're on that list you can figure out which validators do let you through and cast your vote when they're in charge.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:01 PM
You're attacking the idea of a list in the first place and trying to make it a flaw of this HIP.
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groot
Like I said, I'll just wait until I see a consensus group made up of the right validators.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:02 PM
That wait will likely be much longer than the vote period.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're attacking the idea of a list in the first place and trying to make it a flaw of this HIP.
Not sure why it is accepted to use hypotheticals against HNT voting but you can not do the same against this HIP.
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groot
Not sure why it is accepted to use hypotheticals against HNT voting but you can not do the same against this HIP.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:03 PM
what hypothetical?
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groot
Not sure why it is accepted to use hypotheticals against HNT voting but you can not do the same against this HIP.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:03 PM
You're literally using hypotheticals in this lol
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:03 PM
there is no hypothetical it's the premise of how the vote works currently
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're literally using hypotheticals in this lol
Read the sentence, never said I wasn't. I said if it was allowed to do it against HNT voting it should be allowed against this HIP.
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groot
Read the sentence, never said I wasn't. I said if it was allowed to do it against HNT voting it should be allowed against this HIP.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:04 PM
how is it being done against HNT voting?
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groot
Not sure why it is accepted to use hypotheticals against HNT voting but you can not do the same against this HIP.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:04 PM
Will some gamer votes get through a denylist once in a while? Possibly, sure. Is that a flaw in this HIP? no. (edited)
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groot
Read the sentence, never said I wasn't. I said if it was allowed to do it against HNT voting it should be allowed against this HIP.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:04 PM
Ah, that wasn't clear. Sorry 🙂
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groot
Read the sentence, never said I wasn't. I said if it was allowed to do it against HNT voting it should be allowed against this HIP.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:07 PM
Just so we're on the same page, which hypotheticals are being used against HNT weighted voting? 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
how is it being done against HNT voting?
There is a need to further constrain the HIP voting process such that influence in vote cannot be "bought" by simply holding large ballances in wallets. Is a hypothetical unless you have evidence of this actually happening.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:07 PM
are we just increasingly moving everything to "committees"? I was just revisiting HIP 40 and see it's proposed a "PoC Committee"?
14:07
governance by committee doesn't seem like a viable long term solution in general tbh
14:08
even with MOC it's a band aid fix
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
governance by committee doesn't seem like a viable long term solution in general tbh
BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 2:08 PM
thats the old hip
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That's not likely the last draft of HIP40.
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/04/2022 2:08 PM
new one soon
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groot
There is a need to further constrain the HIP voting process such that influence in vote cannot be "bought" by simply holding large ballances in wallets. Is a hypothetical unless you have evidence of this actually happening.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:08 PM
It doesn't need to be shown to be actually happening to be called out as a flaw in the process. We don't have to wait for an exploit to be used before fixing it 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It doesn't need to be shown to be actually happening to be called out as a flaw in the process. We don't have to wait for an exploit to be used before fixing it 🙂
I see, yet if I point out a flaw it is 'not a problem with this HIP'.
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groot
There is a need to further constrain the HIP voting process such that influence in vote cannot be "bought" by simply holding large ballances in wallets. Is a hypothetical unless you have evidence of this actually happening.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:08 PM
how is that a hypothetical lmao that is literally how it works
14:09
you're basically saying "prove that's what people are doing"
14:09
when that's not what's being argued. it's that it's possible
14:09
the fact that I can't definitively prove or disprove it is the issue
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groot
I see, yet if I point out a flaw it is 'not a problem with this HIP'.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:09 PM
Fair point. But if the flaw is the same either way, then it's not a factor in this HIP. This HIP is not here to fix gaming.
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The flaw is not the same either way though.
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groot
I see, yet if I point out a flaw it is 'not a problem with this HIP'.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:10 PM
no you just pointed out a flaw in another context which isn't part of this discussion. the fact that it's hypoetical or not seems like a red herring
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groot
I see, yet if I point out a flaw it is 'not a problem with this HIP'.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:10 PM
The oversized influence of HNT voting has already been shown.
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14:10
Your own charts showed it, @groot 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The oversized influence of HNT voting has already been shown.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:10 PM
I can't tell you how many times and places i've seen community commentary around "wtf how is it that only x people voted but the vote is weighted Y"
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Your own charts showed it, @groot 🙂
You must know more than I do.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:11 PM
because of wallet balances and general lack of community / voter engagement
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groot
You must know more than I do.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:12 PM
I thought Neil called out your charts in previous votes. Apologies if I'm misremembering 🙂
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EdB-charlietango 05/04/2022 2:12 PM
Feedback: 1) When pull requests accepted on HIPs? 2) Shore up clarification of miner (as the person doing the mining) and the hotspot (as the thing that does the mining) 3) Would suggest some ground values added to the HIP as a basis for DE&I-inspiration as represented through governance - having a seat at the table, having a voice at the table, that voice is heard. 4) Run the spell-checker. Don't give the naysayers extra ammo to begin with. 😅 5) Absolution clauses (simply X, extremely Y, obviously Z), would be benefited by data which backs those claims. Or just put them out as opinions/claims that you're seeking data to support them (tap community for help/co-authorship) 6) Raw feedback for anyone writing their first HIP (this means me too): Find a co-author, or even a sponsor (from someone who has written one before) Edge cases to run logic by: 1) Hotspots onboarded to a wallet as criteria to get a vote... So if I onboard miners and sell them to others, then I get the voting power? 2) One person owns one miner, makes a bunch of HNT, then the miner breaks/transferred but they still have vested interest. 3) "Shadowy" true hotspot owner obscures ownership through host companies & binding agreements with regard to voting 4) Hotspot activity/longevity since last location assertion? transfer of ownership? Quality of PoC? Trust score? General commentary: 1) Stakeholders/parties deserving of votes: Sensible - Builders, Users, Investors, Miners; Arguable - Manufacturers, Helium Foundation, Sub DAOs, Leadership/Founders, Fleet Owners, Wallets (all have variable interests of short term vs long term thinking along with white/black/gray hat manifestations) 2) Hot take: choices made here will influence acquisition of host companies 3) I think having an automated weekly straw poll on every HIP to trigger automatic removal criteria would be awesome impetus to move HIPs along or pivot mercilessly. 5) What, no KYC mentioned anywhere?! 😜 6) Non-validator staking is relevant
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EdB-charlietango
Feedback: 1) When pull requests accepted on HIPs? 2) Shore up clarification of miner (as the person doing the mining) and the hotspot (as the thing that does the mining) 3) Would suggest some ground values added to the HIP as a basis for DE&I-inspiration as represented through governance - having a seat at the table, having a voice at the table, that voice is heard. 4) Run the spell-checker. Don't give the naysayers extra ammo to begin with. 😅 5) Absolution clauses (simply X, extremely Y, obviously Z), would be benefited by data which backs those claims. Or just put them out as opinions/claims that you're seeking data to support them (tap community for help/co-authorship) 6) Raw feedback for anyone writing their first HIP (this means me too): Find a co-author, or even a sponsor (from someone who has written one before) Edge cases to run logic by: 1) Hotspots onboarded to a wallet as criteria to get a vote... So if I onboard miners and sell them to others, then I get the voting power? 2) One person owns one miner, makes a bunch of HNT, then the miner breaks/transferred but they still have vested interest. 3) "Shadowy" true hotspot owner obscures ownership through host companies & binding agreements with regard to voting 4) Hotspot activity/longevity since last location assertion? transfer of ownership? Quality of PoC? Trust score? General commentary: 1) Stakeholders/parties deserving of votes: Sensible - Builders, Users, Investors, Miners; Arguable - Manufacturers, Helium Foundation, Sub DAOs, Leadership/Founders, Fleet Owners, Wallets (all have variable interests of short term vs long term thinking along with white/black/gray hat manifestations) 2) Hot take: choices made here will influence acquisition of host companies 3) I think having an automated weekly straw poll on every HIP to trigger automatic removal criteria would be awesome impetus to move HIPs along or pivot mercilessly. 5) What, no KYC mentioned anywhere?! 😜 6) Non-validator staking is relevant
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:13 PM
oh hello well though out commentary
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EdB-charlietango 05/04/2022 2:13 PM
Sorry for the long wall of text... still catching up 😅
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EdB-charlietango
Sorry for the long wall of text... still catching up 😅
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:13 PM
thanks for reading 👍
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Pretty much lost interest in proving that when I found out on heliumvote.com that no votes went one way when weighted and another way when by count. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:13 PM
So answer me this: A miner 6 month ago mines for a month. A miner today mines for a month. Why does the first miner get 10x the voting power for the same amount of work for the network?
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To be the devils advocate he did support the network 6 months longer so it isn't 'the same amount of work'. Ah sorry, missed the 1 month thing. (edited)
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groot
Pretty much lost interest in proving that when I found out on heliumvote.com that no votes went one way when weighted and another way when by count. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:15 PM
There are votes that won via HNT but lost via votes. Granted, not a lot of data to go off of. 🙂
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groot
To be the devils advocate he did support the network 6 months longer so it isn't 'the same amount of work'. Ah sorry, missed the 1 month thing. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:15 PM
Yeah, the month thing to try to keep it apples to apples 🙂
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Maybe make it where a hotspot can vote but you have to have it signed by the hotspot 😅
14:16
Same with router and validator
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There are votes that won via HNT but lost via votes. Granted, not a lot of data to go off of. 🙂
Happen to know which ones?
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groot
Happen to know which ones?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:17 PM
I'd have to go look again. I think 39 of the top of my head?
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39 was 5540 for, 2995 against, 10.8M for, 3.8M against.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
There are votes that won via HNT but lost via votes. Granted, not a lot of data to go off of. 🙂
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:17 PM
are we having a proxy debate over the electoral college...? lol
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Anthonyra
Maybe make it where a hotspot can vote but you have to have it signed by the hotspot 😅
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:18 PM
thought about that actually, which you could do by having to pair I believe, but that might be too burdensome. although...actually...that might help hosts have more say even when they dont own the hotspot
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Kind of relevant since whales swaying is such a central argument against HNT-weighted voting.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:19 PM
since a host could theoretically pair to a hotspot to sign the vote tx with Both their wallet PK & the miner PK
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
are we having a proxy debate over the electoral college...? lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:19 PM
😂 1
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EdB-charlietango 05/04/2022 2:20 PM
I also forgot to mention the relevance of tokens staying with their original mined wallet. Huge balances attract unwanted attention, which are then tied to a location. This is a reality we need to work around. Also, builders using tokens to fund growth of network would have less say if they had fewer tokens. Someone doing the hard work lets someone else get all the voice? Not "fair" either. Sorry to invoke that term. The reality is we have to bind the whales to the builders as we need them both. Would be awesome to somehow get a mini-flywheel back to them. Silly example (and definitely not a suggestion): all wallets that sent tokens to a particular manufacturer/distributor/supplier could get an airdrop. (edited)
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groot
Kind of relevant since whales swaying is such a central argument against HNT-weighted voting.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:20 PM
I don't know how much of it is about whales in particular it's the fact that there is no friction involved in purchasing
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No friction, no liquidity either.
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groot
39 was 5540 for, 2995 against, 10.8M for, 3.8M against.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:21 PM
So yeah, it fell short of the 66% required.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:21 PM
whereas there is some utility / work inherent to operating a hotspot/validator/router
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groot
No friction, no liquidity either.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:21 PM
how so
14:21
nobody is saying you CANT purchase...just that it doesn't come with a vote
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Can't discuss it, you'll have to figure it out on your own.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:22 PM
it comes with any. monetary incentive but not a governance incentive
14:22
that doesn't seem all that controversial or conflicting. removing voting power from the token itself doesn't take away the economic incentive.
14:23
it's basically just a statement that the referee can't play in the game at the same time
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:23 PM
Quick question: Is it possible for ex ch ang es to vote with the HNT they currently own? (edited)
14:23
Just curious
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They currently own* and yes.
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groot
They currently own* and yes.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:24 PM
not your keys not your coins Troll
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
that doesn't seem all that controversial or conflicting. removing voting power from the token itself doesn't take away the economic incentive.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:25 PM
I find it funny that we're having to debate so much to change a thing that the community never approved in the first place. heh
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I find it funny that we're having to debate so much to change a thing that the community never approved in the first place. heh
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:25 PM
gotta start somewhere I guess
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
gotta start somewhere I guess
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:26 PM
chicken-egg as usual 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:26 PM
didn't realize I'd face so much hostility toward what is fundamentally "network participants should have an equal say"
14:26
tbh
14:27
radical centrism 🌠
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
didn't realize I'd face so much hostility toward what is fundamentally "network participants should have an equal say"
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 05/04/2022 2:27 PM
You should have seen #hip-58-poc-distance-limit , terrible audience on that channel
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
didn't realize I'd face so much hostility toward what is fundamentally "network participants should have an equal say"
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:27 PM
Not really. Congress sets their own rules. You really think they'd ever vote to give away power? 😉
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You should have seen #hip-58-poc-distance-limit , terrible audience on that channel
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:27 PM
I saw a lot of the blowback lol
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
You should have seen #hip-58-poc-distance-limit , terrible audience on that channel
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:27 PM
I'd argue 39 was worse 😉 lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'd argue 39 was worse 😉 lol
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 05/04/2022 2:28 PM
Is still* troll (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 2:28 PM
mainly over "I'm by sheer incidence 5 km over the limit, wouldn't have cared if it was limit + 5"
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Is still* troll (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 2:28 PM
OOF 😅
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so a miner in a basement gets as much voting power as a well placed miner that provides 10x more coverage for the network. That doesnt seems fair to me.
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Yassin
so a miner in a basement gets as much voting power as a well placed miner that provides 10x more coverage for the network. That doesnt seems fair to me.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 3:30 PM
No
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Yassin
so a miner in a basement gets as much voting power as a well placed miner that provides 10x more coverage for the network. That doesnt seems fair to me.
Deleted User 05/04/2022 3:43 PM
Should unemployed people have few votes in an election than a business owner?
15:45
If someone wants to put a hotspot in a basement with zero witnesses and call it a day, they’ll miss out on HNT, they don’t need to miss out on voting power too.
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Not in anyway an equivalent situation
15:53
But thanks
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groot
Happen to know which ones?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 3:53 PM
The list of passed votes: 🔴 HIP39: Failed 64.9% 🟢 HIP42 Temp check: Passed 72.4% 🟢 Nova Denylist: Passed 90.5% 🔴 Publish Denylist: Failed 62.4% 🟢 HIP54: Passed 91.5% 🔴 HIP55: Failed 64.4% 🟢 HIP56: Passed 97.5% 🟢 HIP58: Passed 87.5%
15:56
Small sample size, but over a third of votes would not have passed without HNT weighted votes. If we only count actual HIP votes, 2/5 (40%) would have failed. (edited)
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Deleted User
If someone wants to put a hotspot in a basement with zero witnesses and call it a day, they’ll miss out on HNT, they don’t need to miss out on voting power too.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 3:56 PM
Rewards go to those that are useful to the network. Voting is no different. (edited)
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Living in society/under a government is not a choice. Participating in the helium ecosystem is. Thus voting in the helium ecosystem ought to be a privilege.
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jhbr821
Living in society/under a government is not a choice. Participating in the helium ecosystem is. Thus voting in the helium ecosystem ought to be a privilege.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 4:03 PM
That logic doesn't work actually 🙂
16:05
Those that own the network and make it functional, vote. Hotspots, Routers, and Validators.
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Leo 🇦🇺 05/04/2022 4:08 PM
Ooof - that's a lot of catching up to do. Still wish these community calls could be at a more 'civilised' time for us antipodeans 🙂 Good to see this has moved onto the HIP stage! I pretty much agree with the intent of this HIP, but I would also want to look a bit into the actual mechanics at some stage. There will likely be votes on matters that effect hotspot owners only. It would be good if the mechanism is flexible enough to accommodate such matters. The same goes for regions. The practical example is HIP-45 where a vote would be required by hotspot owners in Australia (and one for our Kiwi friends too). I hope whatever voting mechanism gets decided on is flexible enough to be used in more nuanced circumstances. But "proof-of-usefulness" is a good start rather than tokens held.
👍 2
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EdB-charlietango 05/04/2022 4:12 PM
With all the voting data on chain, I would love to see some ETL analysis on voting criteria if certain scenarios played out on previous votes.
💯 1
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EdB-charlietango
With all the voting data on chain, I would love to see some ETL analysis on voting criteria if certain scenarios played out on previous votes.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 4:15 PM
Like what exactly?
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EdB-charlietango
With all the voting data on chain, I would love to see some ETL analysis on voting criteria if certain scenarios played out on previous votes.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 4:15 PM
Like this?
The list of passed votes: 🔴 HIP39: Failed 64.9% 🟢 HIP42 Temp check: Passed 72.4% 🟢 Nova Denylist: Passed 90.5% 🔴 Publish Denylist: Failed 62.4% 🟢 HIP54: Passed 91.5% 🔴 HIP55: Failed 64.4% 🟢 HIP56: Passed 97.5% 🟢 HIP58: Passed 87.5% Small sample size, but over a third of votes would not have passed without HNT weighted votes. If we only count actual HIP votes, 2/5 (40%) would have failed.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Like this?
The list of passed votes: 🔴 HIP39: Failed 64.9% 🟢 HIP42 Temp check: Passed 72.4% 🟢 Nova Denylist: Passed 90.5% 🔴 Publish Denylist: Failed 62.4% 🟢 HIP54: Passed 91.5% 🔴 HIP55: Failed 64.4% 🟢 HIP56: Passed 97.5% 🟢 HIP58: Passed 87.5% Small sample size, but over a third of votes would not have passed without HNT weighted votes. If we only count actual HIP votes, 2/5 (40%) would have failed.
EdB-charlietango 05/04/2022 4:26 PM
I think that would be helpful. And similar under various different sets of rules.
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EdB-charlietango
I think that would be helpful. And similar under various different sets of rules.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 4:28 PM
Yeah, this was just based on the unweighted vote counts 🙂 To get a better idea of "what if" for past votes, we'd need to be able to identify the votes/vote sources, and I'm not sure that's possible. (edited)
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 4:47 PM
If HIP51 passes, how and where does this HIP fit? HIP51 dramatically overhauls the governance system in its present form.
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KingBuckIII
If HIP51 passes, how and where does this HIP fit? HIP51 dramatically overhauls the governance system in its present form.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 4:54 PM
governance should not be a "pork" rider on another HIP.
16:54
All the more reason to get this issue settled before the DAO HIPs get to the point of a vote.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
governance should not be a "pork" rider on another HIP.
KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 4:58 PM
I'm not saying it should be a "pork" rider
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KingBuckIII
I'm not saying it should be a "pork" rider
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 4:58 PM
I know, but that's what it is right now.
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 4:59 PM
Can you elaborate on what you mean? I want to make sure I understand your point
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I might be being flippant but I am curious as to the positions. Should ElonTusk have more say than me in how a vote goes because he is more engaged than me? Why does a person that can afford 10,000 HNT to stake a validator get 10,000 more votes than me because I can only afford 2000 HNT to put into a validator pool? [jeebus we need delegated staking!] Should I have more say than one of my 35 hosts? Or does my involvement in managing 35 hotspots simply give me the power to better convince my host on how to vote? Should deasydoesit have more say than me because he runs 100+ validators? What if the issue was how validators should be provisioned? And then do I get more say than him when it comes to how hotspots should be managed? Democracy has me biased towards one person one vote. But apparently we can't have KYC. Does decentralization wipe out the logic for one person one vote? Or does it force a narrative that only merit should be rewarded with a vote?
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KingBuckIII
Can you elaborate on what you mean? I want to make sure I understand your point
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:00 PM
It's trying to tack on voting to an unrelated HIP just because it didn't pass in its own HIP. It's like when a bill is passed, but they sneak in other stuff.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's trying to tack on voting to an unrelated HIP just because it didn't pass in its own HIP. It's like when a bill is passed, but they sneak in other stuff.
It definitely feels that way.
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 5:01 PM
yes I understand that
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:01 PM
Should ElonTusk have more say than me in how a vote goes because he is more engaged than me?
Yes! lol j/k 😉
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 5:01 PM
Are you implying HIP60 is the pork rider of HIP51?
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KingBuckIII
Are you implying HIP60 is the pork rider of HIP51?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:02 PM
No... the voting bits in HIP51 are the pork 🙂
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 5:05 PM
Ok, that aside. Let's assume HIP60 is passed and implemented prior to HIP51. HIP60 speaks to governance but then HIP51 delegates governance to each protocol. This seems like it will get quite messy. How would HIP60 have any relevance if HIP51 delegates governance to each protocol. That is what I am getting at.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:05 PM
"Vote of this bill to fund helping homeless children! (also my home state's defense contractor funding)" "But I don't want to vote to fund your defense contractor" "What? You hate homeless children??"
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KingBuckIII
Ok, that aside. Let's assume HIP60 is passed and implemented prior to HIP51. HIP60 speaks to governance but then HIP51 delegates governance to each protocol. This seems like it will get quite messy. How would HIP60 have any relevance if HIP51 delegates governance to each protocol. That is what I am getting at.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:07 PM
Once HIP60 (some version of it) then we would have the power to shoot down power grabs like that rather than the current system of the wealthy having all the voting power.
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 5:08 PM
I don't think HIP51 is a power grab, but each person is entitled to their own opinion.
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KingBuckIII
I don't think HIP51 is a power grab, but each person is entitled to their own opinion.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:09 PM
Shoehorning in voting into that HIP is.
17:09
If they want that method of voting, they can get a HIP on it to pass based on it's own merits
17:10
But you'll note that HIPs 31 and 41 have sat idle for months with no movement
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 5:11 PM
I don't believe staking power is a perfect governance practice but many other protocols (whether it be DeFi, gaming, or a PoS L1) use it.
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KingBuckIII
I don't believe staking power is a perfect governance practice but many other protocols (whether it be DeFi, gaming, or a PoS L1) use it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:11 PM
We're not a crypto project 😉
👆 1
17:12
We're a utility that uses crypto to solve the self-start issue
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
We're not a crypto project 😉
KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 5:12 PM
You don't actually believe that, do you haha?
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KingBuckIII
You don't actually believe that, do you haha?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:13 PM
I don't post things that aren't factual 😉
17:13
(least i try real hard 😉 lol )
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wouldn't HIP 60 just mean someone would have to buy a bunch of hotspots 🤔 not seeing how that prevents people from buying more voting power
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joecoin
wouldn't HIP 60 just mean someone would have to buy a bunch of hotspots 🤔 not seeing how that prevents people from buying more voting power
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:15 PM
The HIP needs a lot of work, but it should be that an installed hotspot gets voting rights. Gotta be useful to the network if you want the rewards 🙂
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joecoin
wouldn't HIP 60 just mean someone would have to buy a bunch of hotspots 🤔 not seeing how that prevents people from buying more voting power
Leo 🇦🇺 05/04/2022 5:15 PM
If that increases network utility (ie. coverage) - that's a good thing.
👍 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:15 PM
no point giving votes to a bunch of hotspots sitting idle on a shelf 🙂
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yeah but nothing here stipulates that you'd have to have beneficial hotspots, unless I missed something...
17:16
wishful thinking?
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joecoin
yeah but nothing here stipulates that you'd have to have beneficial hotspots, unless I missed something...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:16 PM
Like I said, there is a lot of edits needed. This is a very rough first draft so far 🙂
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 5:20 PM
Doesn't this HIP need to be modified to consider Helium's future with multiple different networks? For example, if you have one person who owns one LoRa hotspot and one person who owns one 5G hotspot, the 5G hotspot will be transferring significantly more data and will be providing more value to its respective network and its users (the whole point of the Helium network). Why then should the 5G hotspot owner and the LoRa hotspot owner have the same voting rights?
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KingBuckIII
Doesn't this HIP need to be modified to consider Helium's future with multiple different networks? For example, if you have one person who owns one LoRa hotspot and one person who owns one 5G hotspot, the 5G hotspot will be transferring significantly more data and will be providing more value to its respective network and its users (the whole point of the Helium network). Why then should the 5G hotspot owner and the LoRa hotspot owner have the same voting rights?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:22 PM
Because this isn't Animal Farm 😉
17:22
("Some are more equal than others")
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KingBuckIII
Doesn't this HIP need to be modified to consider Helium's future with multiple different networks? For example, if you have one person who owns one LoRa hotspot and one person who owns one 5G hotspot, the 5G hotspot will be transferring significantly more data and will be providing more value to its respective network and its users (the whole point of the Helium network). Why then should the 5G hotspot owner and the LoRa hotspot owner have the same voting rights?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:23 PM
This is in respect to HIPs. The subDAOs as i understand them will have their own mechanisms
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Is this just saying that hotspots, validators, routers, etc should count toward an accounts voting weight? If it would say that, in addition to HNT - then sure... I agree with giving voters more weight if they have a low HNT balance but millions of HNT in hardware & network infrastructure...
17:24
just my 2c I think that's a more balanced approach
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joecoin
Is this just saying that hotspots, validators, routers, etc should count toward an accounts voting weight? If it would say that, in addition to HNT - then sure... I agree with giving voters more weight if they have a low HNT balance but millions of HNT in hardware & network infrastructure...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:24 PM
No, HNT is not part of the equation.
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yeah, I disagree with that
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:25 PM
Why would a miner that mined for 1 month, 6 months ago, have 10x the voting power of a miner that mines for 1 month now?
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it wouldn't?
17:25
it'd have the same
17:25
that person's balance and weight would be more because they've been involved longer and are invested more
17:25
they could have cashed out
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joecoin
it wouldn't?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:26 PM
Yes it does, right now. Both miners did the same work, but one got 10x the HNT for that work.
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they deserve extra votes
👎 1
17:26
yeah, I'm saying they should both get X for having a miner - the same X
17:26
and then the guy that started earlier SHOULD have Y extra votes
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:26 PM
Seniority is not a factor in voting.
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not getting what you're saying...
17:26
it's not seniority omfg
17:26
they held HNT
17:26
if they sold, they don't get more votes
17:26
get it?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:27 PM
I don't get extra votes for being 10 years older than the next guy
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being invested in the token is worth some share of voting power as much as being invested in a hotspot
17:27
change my mind
17:27
holding token increases value for every hotspot owner, does it not?
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joecoin
not getting what you're saying...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:27 PM
They both did a month of work for the network. But one got 10x the reward.
17:28
you aren't entitled to a bigger stake at the table because you showed up to the party late
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:28 PM
The only difference between them is when they mined.
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I'm not sure what you're getting at
17:28
no, it's HOW MUCH they mined
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joecoin
no, it's HOW MUCH they mined
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:28 PM
They mined the same...
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they provided distinctly more valuable coverage earlier
17:28
there were less devices on the network
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:28 PM
But one got 10x the HNT for the same amount of work (edited)
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dude, get over it
17:29
I mined ETH last year
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They both did a month of work for the network. But one got 10x the reward.
KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 5:29 PM
Not exactly fair to paint it this way. A miner that's been online for two years has provided coverage for two years. A miner that's been online for two months has provided coverage for two months.
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should I give half my ETH to someone who started this year?
17:29
what are you saying?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:29 PM
You don't get 10x voting power just because you got here earlier
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(I don't mine ETH anymore)
17:29
no, but I would have made way more
17:29
that's my point
17:30
the yield going down is all you're pointing out
17:30
that's inconsequential
17:30
they both own a miner
17:30
if you want to give them both X chips for that, do it
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KingBuckIII
Not exactly fair to paint it this way. A miner that's been online for two years has provided coverage for two years. A miner that's been online for two months has provided coverage for two months.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:30 PM
You're ignoring the the 1 month. They both put in the same work. They should have the same voting power for that work.
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you shouldn't take away the HNT from the voting imho
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're ignoring the the 1 month. They both put in the same work. They should have the same voting power for that work.
false
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joecoin
false
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:31 PM
Factually true. 6 month ago a miner made 10x the current rate
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're ignoring the the 1 month. They both put in the same work. They should have the same voting power for that work.
KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 5:31 PM
🤷‍♂️ - have a good night ser, I can't do this
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:31 PM
That's 10x voting power.
17:31
Just for being eariler
17:31
HNT weighted voting is not fair or democratic
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Kristoff from frozen was in the ice business and making a killing before Elsa froze the whole of Arendelle - at least 10x what you'd get in a month selling ice now!
😆 1
🥶 1
17:32
ugh
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joecoin
Kristoff from frozen was in the ice business and making a killing before Elsa froze the whole of Arendelle - at least 10x what you'd get in a month selling ice now!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:32 PM
That's not even close to related. lol
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if you bought HNT at $1 you'd have more than if you. bought at $10, right?
17:32
should you get the same votes because you spent the same amount a year apart?
17:32
NO! elon says
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:32 PM
This is not about buying hnt
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BUT YOU SPENT THE SAME AMOUNT
17:32
explain the diff
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:33 PM
1 month of work should equal the same voting power
17:33
but those just 6 months ago instead got 10x the voting power.
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I mean, have fun measuring abstract things like "work" 😆
17:33
idk how you do that
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joecoin
I mean, have fun measuring abstract things like "work" 😆
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:33 PM
network transaction work.
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I'd just say "X per hotspot, Y per validator, Z per router and then add that to your HNT balance and that's your voting weight"
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:34 PM
You don't need HNT
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if you want to slash the HNT voting weight that's fine but it should be there
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:34 PM
That just favors the older folks and the rich
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otherwise investors get no votes and I don't think that's right
17:34
omg it doesn't FAVOR them
17:34
🤣
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joecoin
otherwise investors get no votes and I don't think that's right
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:35 PM
Investors got their rewards. They don't make the network fucntion
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riiiiiight
17:35
because none of this takes investment
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joecoin
omg it doesn't FAVOR them
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:35 PM
The ability to just buy votes or getting outsized voting power for the same amount of work for the network... yes it favors them.
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I agree with the principal of adding votes for this stuff, again, to be clear (edited)
17:36
maybe even slash the HNT vote to like 1/10 or 1/100
17:36
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
17:36
but don't take it away
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joecoin
maybe even slash the HNT vote to like 1/10 or 1/100
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:36 PM
Why keep it in at all? 🙂
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make it balanced
17:36
because it's part of the ecosystem
17:36
it is a way for people to invest and get voting power and get value from the network
17:36
without having to get their hands dirty
17:37
everyone should be. rewarded
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joecoin
because it's part of the ecosystem
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:37 PM
No... it's just payment. I don't get to vote at my place of work just because I get a wage from them. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:37 PM
HNT is not ownership. HNT is payment.
17:37
Owners vote
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the people that buy 10% of your company get a vote, right?
17:37
exactly
17:37
owners vote
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joecoin
the people that buy 10% of your company get a vote, right?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:38 PM
That is a security. HNT is not a security
17:38
(neither is HST 😉 )
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ownership of a company isn't a security 🤔 (edited)
17:39
oooh shiny HST 😆
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joecoin
ownership of a company isn't a security 🤔 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:39 PM
You're talking buying stocks, which come with voting rights in a company. Those are securities. HNT isn't that 🙂
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I'm not talking about buying stocks
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joecoin
oooh shiny HST 😆
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:39 PM
God I wish... lol
💯 1
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joecoin
I'm not talking about buying stocks
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:39 PM
the people that buy 10% of your company get a vote, right?
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yeah, I'm talking straight ownership
17:40
my point is this... the HNT equivalent cost of all. of those assets should be considered in my opinion, in addition to some valuation on the HNT balance
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joecoin
yeah, I'm talking straight ownership
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:41 PM
It's decentralized. The owners are US. The people that operate the required network infrastructure. Hotspots, Routers, Validators.
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you're still going to have a handful of people with all the voting power no matter what
17:41
the idea that someone can "buy the vote" is not based in reality
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joecoin
you're still going to have a handful of people with all the voting power no matter what
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:41 PM
Not really. 🙂
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these aren't block-tied votes at this point, there is no 51% attack 😆
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joecoin
the idea that someone can "buy the vote" is not based in reality
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:41 PM
Can you just go an buy HNT? Yes? That is reality.
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Carl-bot BOT 05/04/2022 5:41 PM
No discussions on buying or selling HNT please!
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if someone tried to pull stuff they'd just ignore their vote LOL
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:42 PM
damn turtle... lol
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yeah I didn't say "stuff" the first time and got a turtle lol
😄 1
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joecoin
the idea that someone can "buy the vote" is not based in reality
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:42 PM
Can you just go an ahem get HNT? Yes? That is reality.
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yes and no, not at that scale and. not without creating waves
17:43
also again, they aren't tied to the votes, they can interpret them
17:43
the risk is minimal and overstated often
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joecoin
yes and no, not at that scale and. not without creating waves
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:43 PM
Why not? You just get it and vote with it as things stand. That's not ok 🙂
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:43 PM
not sure what you mean
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joecoin
also again, they aren't tied to the votes, they can interpret them
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:43 PM
This part (edited)
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I mean I'd love to see someone stealing money from the system try to turn around and vote down a denylist something or other
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joecoin
I mean I'd love to see someone stealing money from the system try to turn around and vote down a denylist something or other
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:44 PM
They don't need to steal it, but yes, gaming and voting with that HNT is an issue
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it's just not something that would be listened to / allowed is my point - the vote / wallets / money path would be obvious
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:45 PM
Hell, if the old gamers were voting with the insane amount they stole back then. oof...
💯 1
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(I would hope so, at least)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Hell, if the old gamers were voting with the insane amount they stole back then. oof...
yeah if they were smart they ran with it 😆
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joecoin
it's just not something that would be listened to / allowed is my point - the vote / wallets / money path would be obvious
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:45 PM
Why wouldn't it? There is no central authority to stop it.
17:45
And frankly they would have no way to stop it anyway
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to stop what? 😆 who implements the results of the vote?
17:46
I'm not sure what you mean
17:46
stop the vote?
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joecoin
to stop what? 😆 who implements the results of the vote?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:46 PM
Nova and the Foundation
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exactly
17:46
so...
17:46
who cares if someone overturned the vote they'd just invalidate their votes and keep going
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:46 PM
Any gamer can vote with stolen HNT
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🙄 like we're going in circles
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joecoin
who cares if someone overturned the vote they'd just invalidate their votes and keep going
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:46 PM
But they can't. That's not decentralized.
👍 1
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these votes aren't binding smart contract votes omg
17:47
come to reality with me
17:47
welcome
17:47
remember redenom?
17:47
omg the world still exists?
17:47
but it didn't get implemented immediately?
17:47
how?!
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:47 PM
So you're saying that if the Denylist got voted down, that Nova would just do it anyway? lol
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if it clearly was voted down by a bad actor? yes
17:47
and I'd applaud them
17:48
as would anyone else who is serious
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joecoin
if it clearly was voted down by a bad actor? yes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:48 PM
You have no way to know.
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ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!
17:48
17:48
sorry 😆 just don't have the time
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joecoin
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:48 PM
A wallet buys a bunch of HNT and votes against the denylist. Who is that voter? Are they a gamer?
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it's called immutable append-only ledger
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:49 PM
Where did that money come from? Cashed out stolen HNT? You have no way to know.
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no way at all, you're right
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:49 PM
The trail goes cold the minute it hits fiat
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cold as a human body
17:49
KYC isn't a real thing
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joecoin
it's called immutable append-only ledger
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:49 PM
The ledger only goes so far.
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even with all this said, it's clearly suspicious behavior
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joecoin
KYC isn't a real thing
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:50 PM
nova does not have the ability to trace a HNT purchase and identify the wallet owner and connect them to stolen HNT.
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let's just add a "balance from 90 days ago" clause or something
17:50
then hold votes within 30 days
17:50
done
17:51
better?
17:51
😆
17:51
just trying to point out it's an edge case at best on HNT balances
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:51 PM
Not really sure why you're trying to bend over backwards to keep HNT weighted voting. It's flawed to the core
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if we want to talk about giving votes for hotspots, validators, routers, ouis, etc... then sure 👍 that sounds great
17:52
but I think a HIP to remove HNT balance from voting should be separate if y'all want more support
17:52
just my 2c
17:52
get shit moving
17:52
separate concerns
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not really sure why you're trying to bend over backwards to keep HNT weighted voting. It's flawed to the core
this above ^ progress is better
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joecoin
but I think a HIP to remove HNT balance from voting should be separate if y'all want more support
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:53 PM
Honestly, the idea is to set the ground rules for voting in the first place. HNT weighted voting was never approved by the community in the first place. 😉
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just make HIP 61 for removing or scaling back the weight of HNT balance for voting
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joecoin
just make HIP 61 for removing or scaling back the weight of HNT balance for voting
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 5:53 PM
Why make a HIP to repeal something that never passed in the first place? 🙂
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I mean you can ignore it and be your silly self but you can't deny it'd be easier if you separated the two ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
17:54
this would be an auto-approve
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Honestly, the idea is to set the ground rules for voting in the first place. HNT weighted voting was never approved by the community in the first place. 😉
The entire network wasn’t approved by the community. Have to start somewhere. Need a better narrative
💯 3
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capcom
The entire network wasn’t approved by the community. Have to start somewhere. Need a better narrative
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:07 PM
chicken-egg, I know. 😉
18:07
(BTW, chicken every time 😉 lol )
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I mean it would be like saying there’s no need to have HIPs for changes to PoC
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capcom
I mean it would be like saying there’s no need to have HIPs for changes to PoC
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:09 PM
Not exactly, but I see what you're getting at. I've just been pointing out that the status quo doesn't have some special status. 🙂
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Well the special status is that someone needs to convince a majority of the existing stakeholders to change it. Which is kind of special?
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capcom
Well the special status is that someone needs to convince a majority of the existing stakeholders to change it. Which is kind of special?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:14 PM
The stakeholders aren't the issue. It's the power holders that benefit from the status quo.
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In any case, there’s a lot of convincing to do. Need to hire a whip or something
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capcom
In any case, there’s a lot of convincing to do. Need to hire a whip or something
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:15 PM
Well first things first, need to whip this HIP into shape 😉 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well first things first, need to whip this HIP into shape 😉 (edited)
If you have NOT decided on how voting SHOULD be done, then I applaud all your efforts here. IF you already have a position and you are using this style of questioning/challenging to get folks to agree with your position, then I am not so sure it is working. I like it if you are channeling your inner Michelangelo and trying to chip away all of the block that isn't David.
18:27
I will now attempt to support capcom's stance that speculators are vital to this and thus should have voting power (how much remains to be decided). Hosts, hotspot owners, validators, and routers can only claim what "the network is worth". Speculators, investors, purchasers of HNT are the only ones that determine what 'the network is worth'. The price they pay is the value. And that is what makes them vital. Now. Should they have 1:1 voting power to amount of HNT? Maybe not. Maybe. Should we make them hold it for some period of time to get to that 1:1 ratio? Sounds promising. Either way, they are vital.
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KeithR
I will now attempt to support capcom's stance that speculators are vital to this and thus should have voting power (how much remains to be decided). Hosts, hotspot owners, validators, and routers can only claim what "the network is worth". Speculators, investors, purchasers of HNT are the only ones that determine what 'the network is worth'. The price they pay is the value. And that is what makes them vital. Now. Should they have 1:1 voting power to amount of HNT? Maybe not. Maybe. Should we make them hold it for some period of time to get to that 1:1 ratio? Sounds promising. Either way, they are vital.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 6:30 PM
The people who use the network decide what it's worth.
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KeithR
If you have NOT decided on how voting SHOULD be done, then I applaud all your efforts here. IF you already have a position and you are using this style of questioning/challenging to get folks to agree with your position, then I am not so sure it is working. I like it if you are channeling your inner Michelangelo and trying to chip away all of the block that isn't David.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:30 PM
I like that analogy 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 6:30 PM
Speculators are not needed in that regard. Users are.
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KeithR
I will now attempt to support capcom's stance that speculators are vital to this and thus should have voting power (how much remains to be decided). Hosts, hotspot owners, validators, and routers can only claim what "the network is worth". Speculators, investors, purchasers of HNT are the only ones that determine what 'the network is worth'. The price they pay is the value. And that is what makes them vital. Now. Should they have 1:1 voting power to amount of HNT? Maybe not. Maybe. Should we make them hold it for some period of time to get to that 1:1 ratio? Sounds promising. Either way, they are vital.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:31 PM
I disagree. 🙂 Network owners should be the ones voting, not speculators or end users.
18:34
HNT is not ownership.
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capcom
The entire network wasn’t approved by the community. Have to start somewhere. Need a better narrative
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 6:35 PM
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:39 PM
😂 1
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 6:45 PM
Starting to re think the idea of different types of entities voting among themselves and then reconciling / bubbling that up to the larger vote, actually. 🤔 If you just give each class it's own equally weighted vote of 1, that would require a 2/3 vote to pass (meaning x% of each of the classes internal votes to be a binary yes/no as a whole)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:47 PM
House of lords, house of commons, Some other house... 😉 Interesting idea
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 6:48 PM
E.g. If 70% of hotspots vote yes, that's a 1 (yea) for hotspots. If 70% of validators vote yes, that's a 1 (yea) for validators. If under 70% of routers vote yes that's a 0 (nay) for routers. Final tally is 2/3 and the vote passes
18:48
So like n shard / multisig
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:48 PM
Though that feels like the weighting would be off, but I'd have to look at some numbers to be sure.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 6:48 PM
Or it could be 3/3 required but only x% threshold for each sub
18:49
And then each class could theoretically set it's own thresholds internally
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Interesting idea. As much as you don’t want speculators or HNT only holders in the mix, using that model you could have them in the mix as well
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 6:50 PM
The thought is starting to converge with the DAOs and sub daos though just not lora DAO and 5g DAO
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Hotspots = 1 Validators = 1 Routers = 1 HNT holders = 1 3/4 majority wins
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Radrob
Interesting idea. As much as you don’t want speculators or HNT only holders in the mix, using that model you could have them in the mix as well
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:52 PM
Seems like that would give some groups double votes. E.g. votes for being a validator, and again votes for the rewards from being a validator.
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votes for the rewards from being a validator you gotta stop lumping rewards in as a separate thing - it's just part of the HNT bucket
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Radrob
Hotspots = 1 Validators = 1 Routers = 1 HNT holders = 1 3/4 majority wins
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:53 PM
What rewards do router operators get?
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the reward of a special voting category? 🤔
18:53
seems to make sense to me
18:53
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Seems like that would give some groups double votes. E.g. votes for being a validator, and again votes for the rewards from being a validator.
Yea that’s true, but the same is true for those who own hotspots, run Validators, etc
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joecoin
the reward of a special voting category? 🤔
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:54 PM
Not saying they shouldn't vote. Just curious 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
What rewards do router operators get?
They don’t. But without them the network couldn’t function so they need a say in how it functions (edited)
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Radrob
Yea that’s true, but the same is true for those who own hotspots, run Validators, etc
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:54 PM
Right. I was just using validators as an example. Would apply to hotspots too 🙂
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Radrob
They don’t. But without them the network couldn’t function so they need a say in how it functions (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:54 PM
Yeah, I'm behind them voting. 🙂
18:55
Seems odd that they don't get rewards for critical network work
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joecoin
votes for the rewards from being a validator you gotta stop lumping rewards in as a separate thing - it's just part of the HNT bucket
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:56 PM
Not sure what you mean. 🙂
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joecoin
votes for the rewards from being a validator you gotta stop lumping rewards in as a separate thing - it's just part of the HNT bucket
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:57 PM
If they voted as a Validator, and then again as a HNT holder, that's two separate things.
18:58
Meanwhile, Routers would only get one vote.
18:58
Doesn't seem fair to them.
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they make a decision to hold rewards
18:58
the question of routers being rewarded is separate imo
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joecoin
the question of routers being rewarded is separate imo
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 6:59 PM
It's relevant if we're talking about "HNT holders" as a voting bloc
18:59
Hotspots and validators get to double dip 🙂
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Radrob
Yea that’s true, but the same is true for those who own hotspots, run Validators, etc
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:00 PM
That's why it's being proposed to remove them. Just level the field.
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when you say "router" do you mean OUI owner? 🤔
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's relevant if we're talking about "HNT holders" as a voting bloc
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:02 PM
Personally I'm still wondering why holders can't stake their tokens in pools/ validators if they want to vote. Isn't that ultimately no different than a "token lock" that seems to be the next popular alternative?
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joecoin
when you say "router" do you mean OUI owner? 🤔
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:02 PM
Whatever the thing is radrob is talking about. I'm not too familiar with them 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
That's why it's being proposed to remove them. Just level the field.
I was referring to individuals who own hotspots and run Validators would have two votes (without HNT in the mix). You could have HNT speculators vote weight smaller to make the double dip less impactful. I think outside investors and speculators still play a role in success and should have some vote. I know you don’t and that’s ok, but this feels like a good compromise
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Radrob
I was referring to individuals who own hotspots and run Validators would have two votes (without HNT in the mix). You could have HNT speculators vote weight smaller to make the double dip less impactful. I think outside investors and speculators still play a role in success and should have some vote. I know you don’t and that’s ok, but this feels like a good compromise
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:03 PM
This is true about hotspots and validators. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Personally I'm still wondering why holders can't stake their tokens in pools/ validators if they want to vote. Isn't that ultimately no different than a "token lock" that seems to be the next popular alternative?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:03 PM
Not sure staking in a validator pool gives you voting rights though, yes?
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it's not double dipping if it's all independently weighted
19:04
the more investment you have, across the board, the more vote you'll have
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not sure staking in a validator pool gives you voting rights though, yes?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:04 PM
No but you delegate your right to the most trusted / aligned pool operator.
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@Radrob / @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ what is a "router" as defined?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:04 PM
Same applies to hotspot operators actually.
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joecoin
@Radrob / @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ what is a "router" as defined?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:04 PM
Let me try to find a link
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joecoin
the more investment you have, across the board, the more vote you'll have
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:05 PM
Which I can agree with. I just don't think a HNT hodler is investing the the network.
19:05
in a functional way (edited)
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then you don't get it, man 😆 it functionally adds value
19:05
HNT held is less HNT in the supply
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joecoin
@Radrob / @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ what is a "router" as defined?
The Lorawan network server. It’s responsible for onboarding lorawan devices and routing the traffic to backend services https://docs.helium.com/use-the-network/run-a-network-server
The Helium Network is unique in that it provides public wireless infrastructure
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joecoin
then you don't get it, man 😆 it functionally adds value
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:06 PM
Let's put it this way: If the hodlers suddenly weren't there, would the network function? Would it move data and do POC? Yes.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:06 PM
router combines a LoRaWAN Network Server with an API for console, and provides a proxy to the Helium blockchain - GitHub - helium/router: router combines a LoRaWAN Network Server with an API for co...
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19:06
Thanks @Radrob
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yeah, idk that Network server operators should have votes or be rewarded
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joecoin
then you don't get it, man 😆 it functionally adds value
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:07 PM
With all due respect I think you are not putting together here that that is exactly what validators do.
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joecoin
HNT held is less HNT in the supply
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:07 PM
That is just price. 🙂 The price does not have to be anywhere for the network to function, as proven by oracle history
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can anyone explain to me what service I provide anyone other than myself by running this?
19:08
I become a consumer of the network, idk that I should get votes
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:08 PM
So if your argument is that holding takes supply out of circulation... Then your "say" is not being violated. Stake with a validator.
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so you want to tell investors how to hodl to get votes
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:09 PM
I guess the question is, if all the routers went down, would the network function?
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yes?
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joecoin
yes?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:10 PM
Again, I'm not well up on their function. I had gotten the impression they were a critical part of the network. 🙂
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so the router is essentially how I would privatize and use the network for my own gains
19:10
that's why I don't get rewarded
19:10
that's why OUI owners and router operators shouldn't get votes
19:10
they're consumers of the helium ecosystem
19:11
well, maybe they should 🤔
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joecoin
yes?
No. Lorawan devices would not function in that case
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now that I think of it
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joecoin
that's why OUI owners and router operators shouldn't get votes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:11 PM
Ah, yes, with that being the case, they yes, they are not a required part of the network and thus shouldn't vote.
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yes they would @Radrob
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joecoin
yes they would @Radrob
How? If there is no LNS for the sensor to connect with they are effectively dead
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Radrob
No. Lorawan devices would not function in that case
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:12 PM
ok, now I'm confused. Are they required or no? 😅
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I'm assuming we're not claiming the nova infrastructure goes down
19:12
and I'm also assuming we aren't talking about giving nova votes that they won't use...
19:12
so the network would probably keep working if they all went down
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All lorawan networks require LNS to get sensor data from a sensor->hotspot->LNS->backend
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No LNS means no lorawan.
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so... I'm not saying the data would work
19:13
but the network would be fine
19:13
sure, if all the provider servers go down, same thing
19:13
you can't get data if the server is down
19:13
that doesn't mean they get paid twice
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joecoin
but the network would be fine
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:13 PM
no transfering of data doesn't seem fine to me 😉
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I do think, in reflection on this, maybe they should get a vote
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Ok this brings up an interesting thought. Are we governing the blockchain only or the entire Helium network?
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coolcry 1
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so that you don't apply HIPs that negatively affect the routers / OUI operators
19:14
like pricing increases for OUIs, for example
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Radrob
Ok this brings up an interesting thought. Are we governing the blockchain only or the entire Helium network?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:14 PM
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How we doing in here
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joecoin
they're consumers of the helium ecosystem
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:15 PM
Operators build products and services on top of the network and they are who ultimately bring value add so they probably should have a say in the way things function
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Radrob
Ok this brings up an interesting thought. Are we governing the blockchain only or the entire Helium network?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:15 PM
Yes.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Operators build products and services on top of the network and they are who ultimately bring value add so they probably should have a say in the way things function
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:15 PM
End users don't vote on the services they consume
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:15 PM
😂
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here's another angle - what if they don't vote en masse? so it's much easier to swing votes on other parts of the new system? (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
End users don't vote on the services they consume
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:16 PM
But I'm saying the routers are both the service providers and network users
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
End users don't vote on the services they consume
In general, no - but this is saying that the private data operators utilizing the network get a say in changes to the network - I can get behind that
19:17
in a perfect world, I would get a vote in how Verizon improves their services year over year
19:17
and someone running local towers would get way more of a say, hopefully (in a similar model)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
But I'm saying the routers are both the service providers and network users
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:17 PM
I would think they are more on the side of critical network infrastructure rather than consumers 🙂
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they aren't critical network infrastructure
19:17
they're their critical network infrastructure
19:18
might be back to no vote 😆
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joecoin
in a perfect world, I would get a vote in how Verizon improves their services year over year
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:18 PM
Technically you do. You just have to own their stock and vote.
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joecoin
in a perfect world, I would get a vote in how Verizon improves their services year over year
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:18 PM
End users "vote" with their choice of what service to use. If they want direct votes, they buy stocks. 😉
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😆 I'm not independently wealthy enough to have a real vote @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ lol
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joecoin
😆 I'm not independently wealthy enough to have a real vote @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:18 PM
same 🥲
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meh, they only vote where the dollar goes, at the end of the day they make more money every year from all us sheeple
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I would think they are more on the side of critical network infrastructure rather than consumers 🙂
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:19 PM
Agreed they're kind of one foot in one foot out, lol. Like interfaces.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
End users "vote" with their choice of what service to use. If they want direct votes, they buy stocks. 😉
Hmm…so speculators should have a say? 😉
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Radrob
Hmm…so speculators should have a say? 😉
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:19 PM
What service are they choosing to use?
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I'm on the fence, but I like the OUI operators having some say because they should at least have some vote, even if all the other groups would vote against them LOL
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:20 PM
You're not voting with your dollar if you just hold on to your dollar, are you? 🤔
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(in the event of "raise OUI pricing by X" being a HIP)
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Radrob
Hmm…so speculators should have a say? 😉
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:20 PM
Sure, if they actually invest. Stake that HNT in a validator. 😉
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:20 PM
This is getting a bit philosophical.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
What service are they choosing to use?
I was poking at the “buy stock to vote” comments but we don’t need to go down that hole
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
This is getting a bit philosophical.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:21 PM
As it was always going to 😉
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19:24
The voting "bloc" is an interesting idea. Little worried that people would not be behind the "winner take all" nature of it though.
19:25
(ok, now we're into electoral college proxy talk. 😉 lol @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ )
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:26 PM
Just give me my ranked choice vote and direct democracy and we'll be good 😂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:28 PM
@joecoin I think if we're behind the idea of routers getting votes, HNT voting needs to be eliminated or at worst severely scaled to keep the playing field level.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:30 PM
I just wish I could find a reason why holders should have a vote that can't be resolved by "stake with a validator"
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19:30
Then I might see the perspective
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It's not meant to be level
19:30
Or shouldn't be
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joecoin
It's not meant to be level
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:31 PM
"meant"?
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Life ain't fair 🤣
19:31
It's a box of chocolates
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:31 PM
Literally the only reason you would need to hold and have near term liquidity like that would be you sell
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19:32
So frankly if anything I don't think it's adding value, it's doing the opposite.
19:32
It's basically a short position.
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Wow that's the only reason why so many people are doing it?
19:32
That's scary
19:32
I might leave helium as a project
19:32
Thanks for the info
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:32 PM
If you're holding or buying anyway
19:32
And have "confidence"
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:32 PM
Then what's the issue with staking 🤔
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Ummm
19:33
Do you want a list?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:33 PM
Yes
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Or a paragraph
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:33 PM
Either
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Or a thesis paper
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:33 PM
Whatever suits you
19:33
Just something immediate liquidity is needed for that isn't selling
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joecoin
Life ain't fair 🤣
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:34 PM
Yes, but doesn't mean it can't be. 🙂
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If staking was clicking a button I would agree with you but it isn't
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:34 PM
The quiet part out loud of wallet holders seems to be exit liquidity is the reason
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When you can stake HNT with an exchange, then I'll concede that point
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joecoin
When you can stake HNT with an exchange, then I'll concede that point
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:35 PM
I think that's more of an issue of implementation than technical ability
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Agreed
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:35 PM
Or perhaps regulatory uncertainly
19:35
Or both
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Sure
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joecoin
If staking was clicking a button I would agree with you but it isn't
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:36 PM
I'm ok with it not being 100% easy. We want people that are in for the long haul, right? 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:36 PM
But there are presently pool operators
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As I said earlier, make the HNT change separate and I think this passes easily
19:36
That's a win either way if you can get it through
19:36
Then worry about attacking hodlers
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:36 PM
Separate?
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joecoin
When you can stake HNT with an exchange, then I'll concede that point
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:36 PM
* calls up KuCoin * Yo, get on that! 😄
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:36 PM
I must have missed something
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joecoin
Then worry about attacking hodlers
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:38 PM
It's not an attack. It's no different than HIP58. You want rewards? Then "invest" in the network's long term success.
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Tell them that lol (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:38 PM
5 months really isn't even that long term
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:38 PM
Hodling doesn't make the network functional. 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:38 PM
Less with some pools
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Hodling doesn't make the network functional. 🙂
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:39 PM
More so, HNT is a "utility token". It's meant to be used. For data transfer. Lol (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
More so, HNT is a "utility token". It's meant to be used. For data transfer. Lol (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:39 PM
IIRC it's defined as exactly that 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:39 PM
Just goes back to what is the purpose of the network
19:39
What was it created for
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:40 PM
To make people money? Or transfer data cheaply and use low energy (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:40 PM
awww.. gif fail. lol
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
To make people money? Or transfer data cheaply and use low energy (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:42 PM
Both. One flows to the other 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:44 PM
Well yes lol. But priorities. 😆
19:45
The more base level answer would be "to create value"
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Which I can agree with. I just don't think a HNT hodler is investing the the network.
KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 7:48 PM
What about an MNO or an MVNO that signs a 5G roaming agreement with Helium and acquires HNT on the open market to facilitate future data credit transfer. I'm not sure anyone could rationally argue that's not a significant investment in the network.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:49 PM
They have to burn it to DC to use it
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 7:49 PM
yes, I understand that
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:49 PM
So they would do so afaik via routers. Unless 5g data flows differently than I'm aware of
19:50
But this might be why there are several hips right now to govern 5g with one DAO and lorawan with another
19:50
I haven't followed that discussion as closely
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KingBuckIII
What about an MNO or an MVNO that signs a 5G roaming agreement with Helium and acquires HNT on the open market to facilitate future data credit transfer. I'm not sure anyone could rationally argue that's not a significant investment in the network.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:50 PM
The are using the network we built. 🙂
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 7:50 PM
Yes I understand that
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:51 PM
Customers don't vote 🙂
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 7:51 PM
So they have a significant vested interest in the network but have no governance?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:51 PM
Btw have since changed the hip name to "Entity-Weighted Vote" so not sure if mods want to change it or wait for PR to be reviewed 🤷
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KingBuckIII
So they have a significant vested interest in the network but have no governance?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:52 PM
I have significant vested interest in Ford, but I still don't get to vote. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I have significant vested interest in Ford, but I still don't get to vote. 😉
KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 7:52 PM
I mean, can we stop with the securites comparisons?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I have significant vested interest in Ford, but I still don't get to vote. 😉
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:52 PM
Elon invested in Ford over Tesla...?!
19:52
😂
19:52
Hahaha 😆
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Elon invested in Ford over Tesla...?!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:52 PM
🤫
19:53
(nah... just have an F150 😉 )
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 7:53 PM
Everyone understand that. Anynone with a wallet in a crypto protocol can vote. Fundamentally different from traditional securities
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KingBuckIII
I mean, can we stop with the securites comparisons?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:53 PM
You are the one who brought Verizon into the conversation lol
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KingBuckIII
I mean, can we stop with the securites comparisons?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:53 PM
I wasn't. It's the same comparison you just made. 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
You are the one who brought Verizon into the conversation lol
KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 7:53 PM
I never said verzion, I said an MNO or an MVNO
19:53
Huge difference Verzion is serving the network
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:53 PM
Idk where I got Verizon lmao
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KingBuckIII
I never said verzion, I said an MNO or an MVNO
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:54 PM
Ok, then something like Ting.
19:54
They are a consumer of the network someone else built. They don't get voting rights for using the network.
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 7:55 PM
Ok, that has nothing to do with your Ford example. You can own the the stock without being a consumer.
19:55
Theoritically, I agree an MNO could fit the same mold
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:55 PM
I thought we wanted to stop the securities comparisons. ☠
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KingBuckIII 05/04/2022 7:56 PM
Ok I digress
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19:56
Well have to agree to disagree, no sense in wasting time
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:56 PM
I think they do get voting rights per se..
19:57
They're voting by consuming the services
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:57 PM
There are builders and there are consumers. One gets to vote, the other doesn't.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:57 PM
Just not votes on helium internal governance
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/04/2022 7:57 PM
Yes, there is always the "vote with your wallet" thing 😉
19:58
Don't like the direction of a service you use? You stop paying for the service.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/04/2022 7:58 PM
As long as there is competition
19:59
Which there would be in this scenario
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
The people who use the network decide what it's worth.
Slightly disagree. The users simply pay for the utility of the network. The people that buy and sell the token are the ones that are setting the value of the network at that moment.
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Radrob
No LNS means no lorawan.
Leo 🇦🇺 05/04/2022 9:20 PM
No LNS in the Helium context also means no DC burn.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Btw have since changed the hip name to "Entity-Weighted Vote" so not sure if mods want to change it or wait for PR to be reviewed 🤷
mods dont have this power, would need to be server admin.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Btw have since changed the hip name to "Entity-Weighted Vote" so not sure if mods want to change it or wait for PR to be reviewed 🤷
Leo 🇦🇺 05/04/2022 10:01 PM
Does not even have close the appeal of the original title 😉 [I get it though...]
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Btw have since changed the hip name to "Entity-Weighted Vote" so not sure if mods want to change it or wait for PR to be reviewed 🤷
Approved.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Btw have since changed the hip name to "Entity-Weighted Vote" so not sure if mods want to change it or wait for PR to be reviewed 🤷
If you make salient changes to the HIP will you also update the rendered view? Second, was this a change in name only, or has the content materially changed?
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KingBuckIII
Doesn't this HIP need to be modified to consider Helium's future with multiple different networks? For example, if you have one person who owns one LoRa hotspot and one person who owns one 5G hotspot, the 5G hotspot will be transferring significantly more data and will be providing more value to its respective network and its users (the whole point of the Helium network). Why then should the 5G hotspot owner and the LoRa hotspot owner have the same voting rights?
This is a valid question. If value to the ecosystem is based upon a subDAOs bottom line contribution in the form of DC usage, a fair voting system for all future subDAOs needs to be in existence at both the DAO level and subDAO level. The proposed governance in HIP51 does this.
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KeithR
Slightly disagree. The users simply pay for the utility of the network. The people that buy and sell the token are the ones that are setting the value of the network at that moment.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/05/2022 5:25 AM
...in lieu of network use, yes. In a fully mature and used network, no.
05:25
"simply paying for the utility of the network" is deciding the price of the network. Utility = value.
05:26
what nobody seems to want to acknowledge advocating for HNT speculation is that the speculation itself is based on whether or not the network will be used. The network having utility is what drives value hence price. So the "speculation" is really just a bet on whether people will use it or not....the value comes from its use. Not the guessing of whether people will do that.
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AndrewsMD
If you make salient changes to the HIP will you also update the rendered view? Second, was this a change in name only, or has the content materially changed?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/05/2022 5:28 AM
I already did the link above was before I updated...forgot the .md on first pass. No "changes" necessarily were made just further elaboration on several notes, e.g. the fact that this is not just addressing hotspots but validators, routers as well.
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05:28
More of a clean up edit for clarifications and grammar, naming convention etc.
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joecoin
yeah but nothing here stipulates that you'd have to have beneficial hotspots, unless I missed something...
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/05/2022 5:29 AM
you missed something in the conversations, not in the HIP itself. What the metric would be for "beneficial" is TBD, it's only been suggested in discussion.
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I didn't miss it, I just don't think it's viable unless you can define it explicitly and explain how/who should measure it and how. Otherwise it's a great idea but that's all.
05:30
If we had a good grasp on this, gaming the network would be much harder
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/05/2022 6:46 AM
I keep hearing about some that would have "more to lose" if the votes don't go their way. These people have "bought" HNT to have a more heavily weighted vote. Or they are someone who was able to get in early and have held on to their HNT for a year or more. One may have extreme interest in the vote, the other may not care, or maybe doesn't even have a great functioning Hotspot anymore because of conjestion. Either way, currently, they have more voting power than someone who is new and actively growing the network. Because of the natural thinning of HNT availability, and the raising value of HNT, newer miners to Helium will never match the voting power of the first 2 examples. No matter how much they work to improve the network, or how much they invest in new hotspots and new locations, they will never match the voting power of those that were able to enter early. I understand we are world wide, and the following comment may not be received well by some, but in the U.S., if you are running for The President of the United States, and you have hundreds of millions of dollars supporting your cause, with millions of people backing your adjenda, you have exactly the same voting power as the homeless guy who is offered a free meal if he gets on a bus to be taken to a voting precinct to vote. I mean no disrespect to those that have helped to get us where we are now, but moving forward, Helium is a different animal as we slowly move from PoC to data transfers. It is important that the new miners entering our project have the same voting power as those that are OG and entered under a different Helium than we will become. I understand the white sheets are the white sheets, and the project itself has not changed, but the way we accomplish the project may change and we need equal votes so everyone, regardless of when they joined, has a voice. (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I keep hearing about some that would have "more to lose" if the votes don't go their way. These people have "bought" HNT to have a more heavily weighted vote. Or they are someone who was able to get in early and have held on to their HNT for a year or more. One may have extreme interest in the vote, the other may not care, or maybe doesn't even have a great functioning Hotspot anymore because of conjestion. Either way, currently, they have more voting power than someone who is new and actively growing the network. Because of the natural thinning of HNT availability, and the raising value of HNT, newer miners to Helium will never match the voting power of the first 2 examples. No matter how much they work to improve the network, or how much they invest in new hotspots and new locations, they will never match the voting power of those that were able to enter early. I understand we are world wide, and the following comment may not be received well by some, but in the U.S., if you are running for The President of the United States, and you have hundreds of millions of dollars supporting your cause, with millions of people backing your adjenda, you have exactly the same voting power as the homeless guy who is offered a free meal if he gets on a bus to be taken to a voting precinct to vote. I mean no disrespect to those that have helped to get us where we are now, but moving forward, Helium is a different animal as we slowly move from PoC to data transfers. It is important that the new miners entering our project have the same voting power as those that are OG and entered under a different Helium than we will become. I understand the white sheets are the white sheets, and the project itself has not changed, but the way we accomplish the project may change and we need equal votes so everyone, regardless of when they joined, has a voice. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 7:36 AM
Well said 🙂
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A political election is one analogy. It's not the only. In company shareholder votes, voting power is based on ownership percentage. Helium doesn't really fit either - neither a government nor a corporation. There is likely something in between.
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PaulM
A political election is one analogy. It's not the only. In company shareholder votes, voting power is based on ownership percentage. Helium doesn't really fit either - neither a government nor a corporation. There is likely something in between.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/05/2022 8:21 AM
Agreed. And I believe this HIP can be written in a way to be fair to most. A vital difference in shareholders and our community, is miners provide a service that is needed to complete the circuit. The companies I own stock in will continue "as is" whether I work for them or not. You are correct, there is likely something in between.
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PaulM
A political election is one analogy. It's not the only. In company shareholder votes, voting power is based on ownership percentage. Helium doesn't really fit either - neither a government nor a corporation. There is likely something in between.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 8:22 AM
Exactly. Network operators are the owners.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Exactly. Network operators are the owners.
define network operators, please. also, what about users of the network and investors who made it possible?
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PaulM
define network operators, please. also, what about users of the network and investors who made it possible?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 8:33 AM
Routers, validators, hotspots. Investors do not run the network. And users of a service don't get votes.
08:34
This all has been discussed in more detail above 🙂
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PaulM
define network operators, please. also, what about users of the network and investors who made it possible?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/05/2022 8:37 AM
I believe we can agree that we all made it possible. Investors, Routers, Validators, and hotspots. And now customers, which we wouldn't have without ALL of the above.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 8:41 AM
Yes, ATT wouldn't exist without customers, but they don't get votes. And the only investors that get votes are the ones that bought securities, which helium does not have.
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by that logic a proxy for that would be: securities => ownership => percentage of the profits of a business. the rewards emissions are kind of like the "profits" of the network. thus : 33% of vote to HST holders, 6% to validators, and 61% to hotspots (edited)
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PaulM
by that logic a proxy for that would be: securities => ownership => percentage of the profits of a business. the rewards emissions are kind of like the "profits" of the network. thus : 33% of vote to HST holders, 6% to validators, and 61% to hotspots (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 8:46 AM
Hnt is not ownership, nor a security. Neither is hst
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agree. was trying to follow the ATT analogy. ownership of security = ownership in a percentage of the profits. the closest thing in Helium is the HNT emission schedule which says investors get 33%, validators get 6%, and hotspots the rest.
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PaulM
agree. was trying to follow the ATT analogy. ownership of security = ownership in a percentage of the profits. the closest thing in Helium is the HNT emission schedule which says investors get 33%, validators get 6%, and hotspots the rest.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 8:51 AM
Those profits are a result of work for the network. They are not a marker of ownership. A car makes co2. Having some co2 doesn't mean I own a car. 😉
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Any analogy is going to suck here. Except that CO2 one. I like it.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 8:53 AM
The functional parties in the network, without which the network would not function, are hotspots, validators, and routers. They are the owners. Owners vote. 🙂
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PaulM
Any analogy is going to suck here. Except that CO2 one. I like it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 8:54 AM
Yeah, a flawless analogy is damn near impossible. Lol
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beep boop, HIP bot here, i just merged author PR with name and copy updates https://github.com/helium/HIP/pull/407
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08:59
p.s. if anybody wants to write a GitHub bot please contact me 🙂
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/05/2022 9:01 AM
As Elon Tusk said yesterday, the elephant in the room, how to get a HIP like this passed when, under our current arrangement, weighted votes would have to vote for less power, which never happens. Maybe a good first step would be to find a way to get the Hotspot owners involved. Like a link on Explorer.Helium.com that keeps them informed on HIPs that directly effect their future in Helium. Heavy proposals such as this will not get passed without exceptional involvement in the current voting process from Hotspot owners.
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jamiedubs
beep boop, HIP bot here, i just merged author PR with name and copy updates https://github.com/helium/HIP/pull/407
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 9:17 AM
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto
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PaulM
define network operators, please. also, what about users of the network and investors who made it possible?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/05/2022 10:20 AM
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PaulM
by that logic a proxy for that would be: securities => ownership => percentage of the profits of a business. the rewards emissions are kind of like the "profits" of the network. thus : 33% of vote to HST holders, 6% to validators, and 61% to hotspots (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/05/2022 10:21 AM
rewards emissions aren't profits because of BME
10:24
we should probably stop reasoning by analogy and reason from first principles. 👍 (edited)
10:31
I don't think anyone thus far has really questioned that hotspots, validators, routers should have a say in governance. the key sticking point is whether or not "capital allocators" (HNT holders) are contributing utility to the functioning of the network. which really seems to depend on how much of a purist you are. personally I've tried to boil down all network contributions from the perspective of what is essential to the system itself functioning. If all money stopped flowing into the system today, the system would continue to function, as HNT is burned to transfer data, the DC value is "captured" by gateways [in the form of HNT] for performing the task of receiving / transmitting data paid for by routers, who in turn charge end users service fees. network consensus on validity of tx receipts is formed by validators. I fail to see any point in this cycle where purely holding HNT is adding any meaningful utility to the network. I would honestly argue if any value is created it's created for markets (e.g. binance, etc), as it's really just providing liquidity in moving between the helium network and other "value networks" or "economies" (edited)
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Carl-bot BOT 05/05/2022 10:31 AM
No discussion on exchanges here, please see #rules.
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Carl-bot
No discussion on exchanges here, please see #rules.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 10:32 AM
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/05/2022 10:33 AM
carl might be onto something. how can we say that we're not allowed to talk about holders and their activities while also saying they're part of the network? are holders in some kind of fight club...?
10:34
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Carl is great, no bad talk about Carl please. He works selflessly at our behest day in day out. (edited)
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Thanks for the additional detail in the updated version. The specific number per participant helps. To the point of HNT holders - this provides incentive for holder to go stake (side stepping the minimum stake amount for a second). Also, don't forget that router/console users pay a few for the OUI which is analagous to onboarding fees for hotspots - those should probably be counted.
10:37
also, data only hotspots pay onboarding fees - $15
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groot
Carl is great, no bad talk about Carl please. He works selflessly at our behest day in day out. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 10:38 AM
Cozying up to the bots for when the AI revolution happens I see. lol
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groot
Carl is great, no bad talk about Carl please. He works selflessly at our behest day in day out. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/05/2022 10:43 AM
carl is just the messenger, the criticism isn't directed at carl
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Cozying up to the bots for when the AI revolution happens I see. lol
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/05/2022 10:43 AM
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/05/2022 10:46 AM
I'm familiar with the Basilisk. Almost mentioned it actually. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'm familiar with the Basilisk. Almost mentioned it actually. 😉
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/05/2022 11:29 AM
Probably good that you didn't. My fault. 😬
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11:30
It commands me
11:30
😂
Fizzy pinned a message to this channel. 05/05/2022 4:52 PM
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Helium Improvement Proposals. Contribute to helium/HIP development by creating an account on GitHub.
Fizzy pinned a message to this channel. 05/05/2022 4:53 PM
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The first sentence in this HIP states "voting power to equal the total number of network entities", but in no way does the quantity of entities someone has, indicate how much value they bring to the network. i.e., you can have hundreds of poorly placed hotspots in NYC with a TSR of .02 and bring less value to the network than someone who has a few dozen optimally placed hotspots with a TSR of 1.0. Same for validators - if someone runs 10 poorly managed validators that constantly run out of disk space and crash, they bring less value to the network than someone who runs 5 properly maintained validators with 100% uptime. While it may have its own struggles, the truest measurement of how much value someone brings to the network on a daily basis is already in place - the HNT rewards system. Perhaps there's a way to use the "Actuals" emission schedule from Helium Analytics to allocate the percentage of votes across entities and then weight the votes within each entity, based on how much HNT you've mined or how much DC you've burned over the last 30 days. HST owners comprise 33% of total voting power Validators - 8% (as of May 11th) Hotspots - 33% (until DC burn increases) For each of above groups, the total weight of each vote is prorated amongst all those who choose to vote, based on how much HNT each of them has mined over past 30 days. Customer voting power could be based on the percentage of rewards given for DC usage, as shown on Helium Analytics - currently .05%. The weight of their votes would be prorated amongst each voting customer, based on how much DC they each burned over the past 30 days. Until DC burn reaches the target, their voting power could be evenly distributed amongst the Miners/HST/Vals, thus not giving any one of these groups more voting power than the other two combined, until DC burn increases. (edited)
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05:15
Something along these lines accomplishes a few things: 1- Distributes the voting power across the three most interested parties - Miners/Investors/Customers. I personally think giving customers the ability to vote is great for protecting their investment in DC as well as their investment in developing technologies to utilize the network. When I build a network for a paying customer, they certainly have a say in the design, as we need to design it in a way that supports what they want it to do. Customers are People. Without customers, there is no need for the People's network. Customers will most certainly propose HIPs down the road, so they should also be able to vote on those HIPs. 2- By using HNT mined over the past 30 days in the pro rata calculation, it future proofs voting, by giving the power to those who, at the time of the vote, provide the most utility to the network, as opposed to those who got in early, or those who provided utility in the past, or those just purchasing HNT as an investment. i.e., if your 5 hotspots produce 1 HNT per day and mine produce .5 HNT, I get half the voting power of you. That is a very measurable/accurate method of how much utility each person/device brings to the network and its customers. 3- Gamers only have voting power until they are identified/shutdown, at which point they stop mining HNT and lose voting power. 4- Encourages HNT holders, who wish to vote, to stake their holdings so that they can mine HNT and gain voting power. The more you stake, the more you mine, the more voting power you have. 5- For validator operators who feel that 8% of total power might be too low, consider for a moment that many HST holders are likely to stake their HNT earnings to validators, so would most likely vote similar to validator operators. 6- Using a political analogy, this creates 3 parties - Miners/HST/Customers - none of which can individually win a vote, thus requiring each HIP to have support from at least two of the parties.
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gtelnet
Something along these lines accomplishes a few things: 1- Distributes the voting power across the three most interested parties - Miners/Investors/Customers. I personally think giving customers the ability to vote is great for protecting their investment in DC as well as their investment in developing technologies to utilize the network. When I build a network for a paying customer, they certainly have a say in the design, as we need to design it in a way that supports what they want it to do. Customers are People. Without customers, there is no need for the People's network. Customers will most certainly propose HIPs down the road, so they should also be able to vote on those HIPs. 2- By using HNT mined over the past 30 days in the pro rata calculation, it future proofs voting, by giving the power to those who, at the time of the vote, provide the most utility to the network, as opposed to those who got in early, or those who provided utility in the past, or those just purchasing HNT as an investment. i.e., if your 5 hotspots produce 1 HNT per day and mine produce .5 HNT, I get half the voting power of you. That is a very measurable/accurate method of how much utility each person/device brings to the network and its customers. 3- Gamers only have voting power until they are identified/shutdown, at which point they stop mining HNT and lose voting power. 4- Encourages HNT holders, who wish to vote, to stake their holdings so that they can mine HNT and gain voting power. The more you stake, the more you mine, the more voting power you have. 5- For validator operators who feel that 8% of total power might be too low, consider for a moment that many HST holders are likely to stake their HNT earnings to validators, so would most likely vote similar to validator operators. 6- Using a political analogy, this creates 3 parties - Miners/HST/Customers - none of which can individually win a vote, thus requiring each HIP to have support from at least two of the parties.
Excellent rebuttal and thoughts to consider. Even more complexity is added when we consider the impact of subDAOs. Thank you for putting the time in to put this in a more clear context.
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07:21
…… To keep it simple however, vote by token lock resolves many of the complexities listed above. I get it that vote by token lock is imperfect, but why complicate things? (edited)
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gtelnet
The first sentence in this HIP states "voting power to equal the total number of network entities", but in no way does the quantity of entities someone has, indicate how much value they bring to the network. i.e., you can have hundreds of poorly placed hotspots in NYC with a TSR of .02 and bring less value to the network than someone who has a few dozen optimally placed hotspots with a TSR of 1.0. Same for validators - if someone runs 10 poorly managed validators that constantly run out of disk space and crash, they bring less value to the network than someone who runs 5 properly maintained validators with 100% uptime. While it may have its own struggles, the truest measurement of how much value someone brings to the network on a daily basis is already in place - the HNT rewards system. Perhaps there's a way to use the "Actuals" emission schedule from Helium Analytics to allocate the percentage of votes across entities and then weight the votes within each entity, based on how much HNT you've mined or how much DC you've burned over the last 30 days. HST owners comprise 33% of total voting power Validators - 8% (as of May 11th) Hotspots - 33% (until DC burn increases) For each of above groups, the total weight of each vote is prorated amongst all those who choose to vote, based on how much HNT each of them has mined over past 30 days. Customer voting power could be based on the percentage of rewards given for DC usage, as shown on Helium Analytics - currently .05%. The weight of their votes would be prorated amongst each voting customer, based on how much DC they each burned over the past 30 days. Until DC burn reaches the target, their voting power could be evenly distributed amongst the Miners/HST/Vals, thus not giving any one of these groups more voting power than the other two combined, until DC burn increases. (edited)
This should be pinned so others can appreciate well thought out voting options to consider when assessing potential changes to HIP60.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 8:19 AM
I think there is a fundamental disagreement on whether or not HSTs are part of the voting population. Especially since there is no "public market" for HSTs. Anyone can buy hotspots, stake validators, or operate routers. Not everyone can access HSTs.
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08:23
So far the least complex and viable suggestion I've seen would be to have each sub group vote internally (hotspots/validators/routers) and then assign the localized result to a 1/0, yea/nay, for/against and then base the final result on an X of Y threshold (e.g. 2/3 vote in the case of hotspots/validators/routers)
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08:23
that way at least hotspots are weighted equally against hotspots, validators against validators, routers against routers, and we dont have to be concerned with how they're each weighted against one another.
08:25
as far as HSTs/HNT holders, I would continue to encourage them to deploy hotspots/validator stakes/routers to have a stake in the vote. I maintain that there isn't any kind of exclusion made by requiring that. It's not all that different than a token lock.
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gtelnet
The first sentence in this HIP states "voting power to equal the total number of network entities", but in no way does the quantity of entities someone has, indicate how much value they bring to the network. i.e., you can have hundreds of poorly placed hotspots in NYC with a TSR of .02 and bring less value to the network than someone who has a few dozen optimally placed hotspots with a TSR of 1.0. Same for validators - if someone runs 10 poorly managed validators that constantly run out of disk space and crash, they bring less value to the network than someone who runs 5 properly maintained validators with 100% uptime. While it may have its own struggles, the truest measurement of how much value someone brings to the network on a daily basis is already in place - the HNT rewards system. Perhaps there's a way to use the "Actuals" emission schedule from Helium Analytics to allocate the percentage of votes across entities and then weight the votes within each entity, based on how much HNT you've mined or how much DC you've burned over the last 30 days. HST owners comprise 33% of total voting power Validators - 8% (as of May 11th) Hotspots - 33% (until DC burn increases) For each of above groups, the total weight of each vote is prorated amongst all those who choose to vote, based on how much HNT each of them has mined over past 30 days. Customer voting power could be based on the percentage of rewards given for DC usage, as shown on Helium Analytics - currently .05%. The weight of their votes would be prorated amongst each voting customer, based on how much DC they each burned over the past 30 days. Until DC burn reaches the target, their voting power could be evenly distributed amongst the Miners/HST/Vals, thus not giving any one of these groups more voting power than the other two combined, until DC burn increases. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 8:26 AM
thanks for the well-thought-out feedback / input on this btw 👍 need more of this kind of discussion. constructive feedback, not just poking holes. (edited)
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AndrewsMD
…… To keep it simple however, vote by token lock resolves many of the complexities listed above. I get it that vote by token lock is imperfect, but why complicate things? (edited)
Because making things complex will make most happy, the rest so confused they will accept it as a well thought out idea.
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Fizzy
Because making things complex will make most happy, the rest so confused they will accept it as a well thought out idea.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 8:38 AM
lol facts
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I think there is a fundamental disagreement on whether or not HSTs are part of the voting population. Especially since there is no "public market" for HSTs. Anyone can buy hotspots, stake validators, or operate routers. Not everyone can access HSTs.
We definitely agree that we disagree. In a manner of speaking, without HST or its equivalent, there is no Helium. Why would an HST holder not be able to vote? They are not the big bad wolf.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
So far the least complex and viable suggestion I've seen would be to have each sub group vote internally (hotspots/validators/routers) and then assign the localized result to a 1/0, yea/nay, for/against and then base the final result on an X of Y threshold (e.g. 2/3 vote in the case of hotspots/validators/routers)
Vote by token lock is complex? Pretty simple to me. I can increase my vote power by locking up my HNT for up to 4 years. As long as that locked up amount can earn more HNT via staking/validation work, . . . I don't see the issue, . . . especially if I was planning on holding that long anyway. Who wants to be the Bitcoin Pizza guy who sold way too early? (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
So far the least complex and viable suggestion I've seen would be to have each sub group vote internally (hotspots/validators/routers) and then assign the localized result to a 1/0, yea/nay, for/against and then base the final result on an X of Y threshold (e.g. 2/3 vote in the case of hotspots/validators/routers)
deasydoesit 05/06/2022 9:21 AM
I like this way as a foundational approach as it can be augmented by weighing in the future if deemed insufficient
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
as far as HSTs/HNT holders, I would continue to encourage them to deploy hotspots/validator stakes/routers to have a stake in the vote. I maintain that there isn't any kind of exclusion made by requiring that. It's not all that different than a token lock.
I think an ability to vote no for them makes sense to an extent as a checks and balance. If the HIP is for the entire networks benefit I doubt they'd vote no. But if the vote was to shift 90% of HST rewards (ie HST 33% Miners 61% => HST 3% Miners 91%) I factored in DC overage in those numbers also... to miners I'd feel they should have a say.
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Anthonyra
I think an ability to vote no for them makes sense to an extent as a checks and balance. If the HIP is for the entire networks benefit I doubt they'd vote no. But if the vote was to shift 90% of HST rewards (ie HST 33% Miners 61% => HST 3% Miners 91%) I factored in DC overage in those numbers also... to miners I'd feel they should have a say.
This is planned already not as high as you stated but miners will get more after the 20year mark.
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e_wellnitz
This is planned already not as high as you stated but miners will get more after the 20year mark.
Sure but was agreed upon when they got their HST. What I'm saying is if they don't have a vote what's stopping a vote from making that happen tomorrow instead of 20 years? (edited)
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AndrewsMD
We definitely agree that we disagree. In a manner of speaking, without HST or its equivalent, there is no Helium. Why would an HST holder not be able to vote? They are not the big bad wolf.
Completely agree. HST holders are why we are all on this discord server in the first place. When the next round of funding is needed, we want/need them to say yes and continue funding the project further. And for any vote to pass under the current voting mechanism, we need their support. They would never vote 'yes' for taking away their voting rights, so we need to protect their interests in the process in order to garner their support.
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10:02
By changing their voting power to be based on how much HNT they mined over past 30 days from staking, rather than how much HNT they've accumulated, it accomplishes your goal of them providing further utility to the network (I'd imagine they are doing that already anyhow - I think those are the folks that keep spinning up validators), while lowering their overall voting power to be more fairly aligned with the rest of us. Honestly, I don't see them voting for that either, but at least it shows you're considering them and not trying to take over the network just because a bunch of people went out and bought 100 miners at $500 each (and put them within 5 miles of each other), compared to the tens of millions they invested.
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gtelnet
Completely agree. HST holders are why we are all on this discord server in the first place. When the next round of funding is needed, we want/need them to say yes and continue funding the project further. And for any vote to pass under the current voting mechanism, we need their support. They would never vote 'yes' for taking away their voting rights, so we need to protect their interests in the process in order to garner their support.
Absolutely, well said. (edited)
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gtelnet
By changing their voting power to be based on how much HNT they mined over past 30 days from staking, rather than how much HNT they've accumulated, it accomplishes your goal of them providing further utility to the network (I'd imagine they are doing that already anyhow - I think those are the folks that keep spinning up validators), while lowering their overall voting power to be more fairly aligned with the rest of us. Honestly, I don't see them voting for that either, but at least it shows you're considering them and not trying to take over the network just because a bunch of people went out and bought 100 miners at $500 each (and put them within 5 miles of each other), compared to the tens of millions they invested.
Something like this would be interesting as it weights voting power based on value creation for the network on a near-term period of assessment, but it does bring up the question as to what is the ultimate purpose that the HIP is trying achieve. Namely, are we trying to create a voting system that differentiates between network participants based on "value creation," "value possessed" or simply "participation"? In the pure network "participation" type voting scheme (e.g., hotspot owners, validator owners, HST holders), we're simply voting on participation types. It doesn't matter if your participation adds significant value to the network, we're all being considered equal for merely participating in the network. In the "value creation" voting scheme, voting power would seem to be most heavily bestowed to those who are entrenched network participants who have the best hotspot locations, most hotspots, most HNT staked to validators, etc. Currently, voting is performed based on the "value possessed" voting scheme, but maybe it could be altered to include a token lock as some have suggested. All approaches have their respective merits, but determination on which is best is only achievable by understanding what the goal is we're trying to achieve. I'm of the opinion that said goal it's to minimize network inequalities, which makes the "participation" type voting scheme favorable, but rational minds can understand the goal differently. (edited)
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gtelnet
By changing their voting power to be based on how much HNT they mined over past 30 days from staking, rather than how much HNT they've accumulated, it accomplishes your goal of them providing further utility to the network (I'd imagine they are doing that already anyhow - I think those are the folks that keep spinning up validators), while lowering their overall voting power to be more fairly aligned with the rest of us. Honestly, I don't see them voting for that either, but at least it shows you're considering them and not trying to take over the network just because a bunch of people went out and bought 100 miners at $500 each (and put them within 5 miles of each other), compared to the tens of millions they invested.
Leaving this here... https://etl.dewi.org/question/2321-hst-holders There is less than 50 HST holders. They make HNT regardless of network performance. Setting a rolling 30 day HNT earned multiplier is not far fetched, the 95%+ of HST holders get more HNT than any of the best hostspots, or validators in a 24 hours span. So if this rolling HNT earned is considered, they would still have the upper hand than any common user with 1 hotspot. Also mind you that earnings for everyone else but HST holders are going to continual drop off a endless cliff over the next 20 years, while HST holders will have a slow slopping decline (because its not like anymore HST to go around and share that pie) (edited)
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10:43
If another multiplier needs to be added to make HST holders feel like they still have some manhood, then so be it, lets hear some contributions to this conversations from them...
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Fizzy
Leaving this here... https://etl.dewi.org/question/2321-hst-holders There is less than 50 HST holders. They make HNT regardless of network performance. Setting a rolling 30 day HNT earned multiplier is not far fetched, the 95%+ of HST holders get more HNT than any of the best hostspots, or validators in a 24 hours span. So if this rolling HNT earned is considered, they would still have the upper hand than any common user with 1 hotspot. Also mind you that earnings for everyone else but HST holders are going to continual drop off a endless cliff over the next 20 years, while HST holders will have a slow slopping decline (because its not like anymore HST to go around and share that pie) (edited)
I was suggesting that the HST holders all be capped collectively at 33% of total voting rights. Within that 33%, the amount that each individually earns over the 30 days would be what gives one HST holder more weight than another, in case they vote differently from one another. And then do the same process within each of the "33% voting buckets".
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deasydoesit
Something like this would be interesting as it weights voting power based on value creation for the network on a near-term period of assessment, but it does bring up the question as to what is the ultimate purpose that the HIP is trying achieve. Namely, are we trying to create a voting system that differentiates between network participants based on "value creation," "value possessed" or simply "participation"? In the pure network "participation" type voting scheme (e.g., hotspot owners, validator owners, HST holders), we're simply voting on participation types. It doesn't matter if your participation adds significant value to the network, we're all being considered equal for merely participating in the network. In the "value creation" voting scheme, voting power would seem to be most heavily bestowed to those who are entrenched network participants who have the best hotspot locations, most hotspots, most HNT staked to validators, etc. Currently, voting is performed based on the "value possessed" voting scheme, but maybe it could be altered to include a token lock as some have suggested. All approaches have their respective merits, but determination on which is best is only achievable by understanding what the goal is we're trying to achieve. I'm of the opinion that said goal it's to minimize network inequalities, which makes the "participation" type voting scheme favorable, but rational minds can understand the goal differently. (edited)
Wow. That is definitely 3 different ways of looking at it and very well said. Unlike kids sports leagues of today, I personally wouldn't want a participation trophy type system. The average hotspot owner who bought one or two miners, and who doesn't even know what discord is, will probably never care to vote, even if we spam them with 'Rock the Vote' emails. They don't even care enough to spend a few minutes googling and learning that they should try not to assert their miner within 300 meters of another. Should their vote have as much weight as those of us who climbed up on the roof to install a 10' mast, just because they bought the same device we did? I think the value creation would be the most fair because it can be based on a measurable metric that shows the true value that you bring to the network. Instead of trying to invent a new method of tracking a hotspots value to the network (it was mentioned a few times in the scrollback), why not just use the existing metric which is the the rewards you earn per month.
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deasydoesit
Something like this would be interesting as it weights voting power based on value creation for the network on a near-term period of assessment, but it does bring up the question as to what is the ultimate purpose that the HIP is trying achieve. Namely, are we trying to create a voting system that differentiates between network participants based on "value creation," "value possessed" or simply "participation"? In the pure network "participation" type voting scheme (e.g., hotspot owners, validator owners, HST holders), we're simply voting on participation types. It doesn't matter if your participation adds significant value to the network, we're all being considered equal for merely participating in the network. In the "value creation" voting scheme, voting power would seem to be most heavily bestowed to those who are entrenched network participants who have the best hotspot locations, most hotspots, most HNT staked to validators, etc. Currently, voting is performed based on the "value possessed" voting scheme, but maybe it could be altered to include a token lock as some have suggested. All approaches have their respective merits, but determination on which is best is only achievable by understanding what the goal is we're trying to achieve. I'm of the opinion that said goal it's to minimize network inequalities, which makes the "participation" type voting scheme favorable, but rational minds can understand the goal differently. (edited)
And I think the goal of the HIP is the second sentence of the summary: "The vote should be weighted accordingly to incorporate the relative network utility value contributed by a given entity respectively."
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10:57
So I focused my writing on the "relative network utility value contributed by a given entity respectively" and added the 'cap' for each bucket, so that no one group of a specific entity would have complete voting power, as seems to be the case now. (edited)
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AndrewsMD
We definitely agree that we disagree. In a manner of speaking, without HST or its equivalent, there is no Helium. Why would an HST holder not be able to vote? They are not the big bad wolf.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:14 AM
That's an unfalsifiable argument which is why it's a non starter for me. 🤷
11:15
I would grant the generic "it's considerably less likely" but to flat out say it would never have worked I do not agree that anyone can really definitively argue that. It's too subjective / probabilistic. (edited)
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Anthonyra
I think an ability to vote no for them makes sense to an extent as a checks and balance. If the HIP is for the entire networks benefit I doubt they'd vote no. But if the vote was to shift 90% of HST rewards (ie HST 33% Miners 61% => HST 3% Miners 91%) I factored in DC overage in those numbers also... to miners I'd feel they should have a say.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:16 AM
HST rewards are never going to shift, no matter what. Moot point. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
HST rewards are never going to shift, no matter what. Moot point. 🙂
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:16 AM
Was just trying to think how to articulate that...so yes. lol
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AndrewsMD
We definitely agree that we disagree. In a manner of speaking, without HST or its equivalent, there is no Helium. Why would an HST holder not be able to vote? They are not the big bad wolf.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:17 AM
If HST were to suddenly disappear, the network would still function. They are not voters.
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If we want to be a DAO it is indeed possible if the governance isn't in check
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:17 AM
I can't put an articulated reasoning around it quite, but it doesn't feel "fair". There is just an indefinite stake without indefinite risk.
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Anthonyra
Sure but was agreed upon when they got their HST. What I'm saying is if they don't have a vote what's stopping a vote from making that happen tomorrow instead of 20 years? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:18 AM
Nova contracts
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AndrewsMD
We definitely agree that we disagree. In a manner of speaking, without HST or its equivalent, there is no Helium. Why would an HST holder not be able to vote? They are not the big bad wolf.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:19 AM
I might be open to consideration of HSTs if we were to say that wallet holders don't count.
11:19
It's the moat factor that seems out of whack for me.
11:19
They just get more and more HNT over time for doing nothing additional.
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Useless to argue about the one thing that is guaranteed not to change
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:20 AM
Basically trying to account for first mover advantage. Every vote should be weighted equally no matter when in time it occurs.
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Then we would never be a true DAO and we should scrap HIP-51 now also (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:21 AM
Like if I'm a person I get one vote as a person. I don't get votes weighted based on how much income I'm making.
11:21
If that were the case, money begets money, so whoever starts first has a perpetual first mover moat.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Like if I'm a person I get one vote as a person. I don't get votes weighted based on how much income I'm making.
That's not what your HIP states though.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Like if I'm a person I get one vote as a person. I don't get votes weighted based on how much income I'm making.
With the amount of lobbying going on in politics I find that argument ridiculous.
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gtelnet
That's not what your HIP states though.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:22 AM
It literally did, but that became too contentious and politicized so I agreed to change it.
11:22
"The vote should be weighted accordingly to incorporate the relative network utility value contributed by a given entity respectively."
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:22 AM
The obvious solution here would be KYC but for privacy maximalists it's a non starter.
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gtelnet
"The vote should be weighted accordingly to incorporate the relative network utility value contributed by a given entity respectively."
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:23 AM
yep. that's the compromised verbiage.
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groot
With the amount of lobbying going on in politics I find that argument ridiculous.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:23 AM
Yes, let's not repeat the same mistake of money in voting. 😉
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:23 AM
at first it was one miner one vote. then it became "well what about validators, routers, etc" and has since pivoted to a debate about who is considered as contributing utility value
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groot
With the amount of lobbying going on in politics I find that argument ridiculous.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:24 AM
try first principles
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
yep. that's the compromised verbiage.
Utility value is currently measured in HNT rewards, for hotspots/validators/stakers, so keep in mind how to incorporate something like that.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:24 AM
"because that's the way it is, it should be that way and questioning it is ridiculous" is empty logic on its face
11:24
it's basically "tradition"
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gtelnet
"The vote should be weighted accordingly to incorporate the relative network utility value contributed by a given entity respectively."
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:24 AM
The bar should be simple. If the group were to suddenly disappear and the network still functions, then they are not a network owner and thus do not vote. (edited)
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Maybe the HNT earned from the HST is excluded, but the HNT earned from the HNT they stake is included.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:25 AM
My argument would be the same for lobbying in politics. It's bribery with extra steps.
11:25
Can't emphasize enough how much I am a dissenting opinion on Citizens United v FEC ruling
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gtelnet
Utility value is currently measured in HNT rewards, for hotspots/validators/stakers, so keep in mind how to incorporate something like that.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:25 AM
HNT is not, and was never designed to be a governance token.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The bar should be simple. If the group were to suddenly disappear and the network still functions, then they are not a network owner and thus do not vote. (edited)
I would think that if the HST holders disappeared, and we couldn't find a replacement, the Nova employees would stop being paid, the code would stop being written and the network would simply go down at the next sh_t block.
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gtelnet
I would think that if the HST holders disappeared, and we couldn't find a replacement, the Nova employees would stop being paid, the code would stop being written and the network would simply go down at the next sh_t block.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:27 AM
You are missing my point. The network would still perform POC and pass data.
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gtelnet
I would think that if the HST holders disappeared, and we couldn't find a replacement, the Nova employees would stop being paid, the code would stop being written and the network would simply go down at the next sh_t block.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:27 AM
that would be terrible mismanagement at that point, they have more than enough funding at this point to be self-sufficient
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The exclusion of network participants just because you, by some arbitrary guidelines, have determined that the network functions without them seems shortsighted.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:27 AM
the fact that we're talking about whether or not the network would function without a private entity just says this isn't decentralized at face value.
11:27
we're trying to move away from that, not toward it
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:27 AM
Yes, if they want to put that HNT to work to grow and build the network, then vote away. 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
that would be terrible mismanagement at that point, they have more than enough funding at this point to be self-sufficient
"More than enough funding" based on what? Have we looked at their P&L?
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gtelnet
"More than enough funding" based on what? Have we looked at their P&L?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:28 AM
idk maybe 100s of millions of dollars seems objectively more than would ever be needed at this stage
11:28
the network is profitable in and of itself. the investment should go into the network. not into private enterprise.
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Didn't they just get another $200M a week or so ago? Maybe you're right, I just assumed the opposite and that they will need more, eventually.
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gtelnet
Didn't they just get another $200M a week or so ago? Maybe you're right, I just assumed the opposite and that they will need more, eventually.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:28 AM
yes
11:28
if they keep needing more at this point they're too dependent on outside capital
11:29
HSTs alone should probably fund operations
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The constant and continuous assumptions about certain network participants, be that routers, end users, validators or HST holders (basically everything but hotspots) seem to be missing some essential context in how this network functions exactly.
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groot
The exclusion of network participants just because you, by some arbitrary guidelines, have determined that the network functions without them seems shortsighted.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:29 AM
Arbitrary guidelines? Not at all. 🙂 The bar is very clear
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groot
The constant and continuous assumptions about certain network participants, be that routers, end users, validators or HST holders (basically everything but hotspots) seem to be missing some essential context in how this network functions exactly.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:29 AM
what assumptions are those
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Arbitrary guidelines? Not at all. 🙂 The bar is very clear
Show me, what arbitrary bar did you set?
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groot
The exclusion of network participants just because you, by some arbitrary guidelines, have determined that the network functions without them seems shortsighted.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:30 AM
what participants are being excluded...?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
what participants are being excluded...?
Routers and validators until recently, holders of HST, HNT and end users still.
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groot
Routers and validators until recently, holders of HST, HNT and end users still.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:31 AM
routers and validators are in the hip
11:31
so let's put that one aside 🙂 👍
11:31
HST and HNT I would grant you, personally I don't believe are active participants.
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groot
Show me, what arbitrary bar did you set?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:31 AM
If you can remove the group and the network can still function, they don't get a vote. Hotspots, Validators, and Routers are the critical parts of the network. Remove any of them and the network stops functioning.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:31 AM
"end users" are not part of the helium network. they're consumers of private enterprise services (edited)
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11:31
routers account for that
11:32
in other words end users are not directly using the service. They're using private services, and those are the participants in the network.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you can remove the group and the network can still function, they don't get a vote. Hotspots, Validators, and Routers are the critical parts of the network. Remove any of them and the network stops functioning.
Try and spin up a fork without initial investors. It might be a little rough. But I digress
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:32 AM
there's a layer between the network participants and the end users that is accounted for here.
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Anthonyra
Try and spin up a fork without initial investors. It might be a little rough. But I digress
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:33 AM
you can keep making this argument it's not going to get any less unfalsifiable
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you can remove the group and the network can still function, they don't get a vote. Hotspots, Validators, and Routers are the critical parts of the network. Remove any of them and the network stops functioning.
We can ditch ETL's, no API though so no transactions. We can ditch validators, network still functions, not as intended but it functions. We can ditch hotspots, network does some things, not all though. We can ditch routers, network will still do some things. In my opinion almost all if not all participants are required. Spokes of the seem wheel.
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Anthonyra
Try and spin up a fork without initial investors. It might be a little rough. But I digress
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:33 AM
The money is not part of the equation. This is about function
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
"end users" are not part of the helium network. they're consumers of private enterprise services (edited)
I would consider them the most important part of the network, once they are spending money. You don't have to "build" the network to be a part of it. I don't see a reason not to let them vote. We aren't building this network for ourselves, we're building it for them. Just like any business, we can't have just us geeks making all the decisions. We need the consumers to provide requirements and direction as well and what a better way to do it by empowering them. What makes them any less People, than us? As long as their vote is capped at the max DC burn rate, they can't harm the network on their own and it would force every future HIP author to keep them top of mind.
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So should the votes be limited in nature or could these votes be used at even chain variable level?
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groot
We can ditch ETL's, no API though so no transactions. We can ditch validators, network still functions, not as intended but it functions. We can ditch hotspots, network does some things, not all though. We can ditch routers, network will still do some things. In my opinion almost all if not all participants are required. Spokes of the seem wheel.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:33 AM
The network does not function without validators...
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gtelnet
I would consider them the most important part of the network, once they are spending money. You don't have to "build" the network to be a part of it. I don't see a reason not to let them vote. We aren't building this network for ourselves, we're building it for them. Just like any business, we can't have just us geeks making all the decisions. We need the consumers to provide requirements and direction as well and what a better way to do it by empowering them. What makes them any less People, than us? As long as their vote is capped at the max DC burn rate, they can't harm the network on their own and it would force every future HIP author to keep them top of mind.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:34 AM
The invisible hand is a metaphor for how, in a free market economy, self-interested individuals can promote the general benefit of society at large.
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groot
We can ditch ETL's, no API though so no transactions. We can ditch validators, network still functions, not as intended but it functions. We can ditch hotspots, network does some things, not all though. We can ditch routers, network will still do some things. In my opinion almost all if not all participants are required. Spokes of the seem wheel.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:34 AM
If there are no hotspots, there is nothing to gather data. Come on... (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The network does not function without validators...
Sure it does, hotspots can run it. Money is no object, functionality only remember, hence stronger hotspots.
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groot
Sure it does, hotspots can run it. Money is no object, functionality only remember, hence stronger hotspots.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:35 AM
no they can't that's literally why we have validators and light hotspots
11:35
we've done this experiment already
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State channels can be used for all sorts of things, so yes without hotspots it still runs.
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What power would these votes have? I might be thinking out of scope here is all
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gtelnet
I would consider them the most important part of the network, once they are spending money. You don't have to "build" the network to be a part of it. I don't see a reason not to let them vote. We aren't building this network for ourselves, we're building it for them. Just like any business, we can't have just us geeks making all the decisions. We need the consumers to provide requirements and direction as well and what a better way to do it by empowering them. What makes them any less People, than us? As long as their vote is capped at the max DC burn rate, they can't harm the network on their own and it would force every future HIP author to keep them top of mind.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:35 AM
They got their contracted rewards. If they want a vote, buy a security.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
no they can't that's literally why we have validators and light hotspots
You can't play the "money doesn't matter, only functionality" card and then claim hotspots cannot run the chain, they can given enough money. (edited)
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groot
Sure it does, hotspots can run it. Money is no object, functionality only remember, hence stronger hotspots.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:36 AM
We're talking about the network as it exists.
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groot
You can't play the "money doesn't matter, only functionality" card and then claim hotspots cannot run the chain, they can given enough money. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:36 AM
they cant in and of themselves. they can with validators.
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The network, as it exists, is supported by HST owners though...
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Anthonyra
What power would these votes have? I might be thinking out of scope here is all
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:36 AM
Voting on HIPs
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They got their contracted rewards. If they want a vote, buy a security.
That can be the title on the marketing brief 😉
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:36 AM
...they could with the equivalent compute power of validators
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But what can HIPs do?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:36 AM
but the whole point of hotspots is supposed to be accessibility and low hardware requirements
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groot
The network, as it exists, is supported by HST owners though...
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:37 AM
how.
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groot
The network, as it exists, is supported by HST owners though...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:37 AM
No it's not. The current HST holders just sit and collect HNT. If they were to disappear, nothing about the network would change.
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I think you are disregarding the influence and attribution of certain participants to fit the narrative but when I do the same to the remaining participants it doesn't hold?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:37 AM
can you at least time bound that with some concrete heuristic
11:37
because it's so incredibly hand wavey
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Anthonyra
But what can HIPs do?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:38 AM
Change the network function of course.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:38 AM
they put in some money at one point in the past so that has arbitrary indefinite payoff that I wont bother making a concrete association
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No it's not. The current HST holders just sit and collect HNT. If they were to disappear, nothing about the network would change.
Let me put it this way, who's going to pay them? You can't remove an actor and keep its attributions 😂
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groot
Let me put it this way, who's going to pay them? You can't remove an actor and keep its attributions 😂
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:38 AM
pro tip, laughing emojis dont get your point taken seriously
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groot
Let me put it this way, who's going to pay them? You can't remove an actor and keep its attributions 😂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:39 AM
You're deliberately missing the point. They do not make the network function. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:39 AM
mocking someone who is trying to understand your perspective doesn't get you very far. 🪰 🍯
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
they put in some money at one point in the past so that has arbitrary indefinite payoff that I wont bother making a concrete association
Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. If you invested millions, and had what is most likely a very tight contract for an indefinite payoff, you wouldn't want people trying to take away your voting power.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're deliberately missing the point. They do not make the network function. (edited)
Am I, or are you just deliberately downplaying the part they play?
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gtelnet
Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. If you invested millions, and had what is most likely a very tight contract for an indefinite payoff, you wouldn't want people trying to take away your voting power.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:39 AM
How much have they gotten in return?
11:40
what is the acceptable and reasonable ROI?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
How much have they gotten in return?
Exactly what they are due.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:40 AM
all I'm stating is it can't just be unbounded
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Change the network function of course.
To what extent? Chain variable updates require Nova signature. So in all reality anything chain variable can’t be voted on. Adding new things is a little different but still signature authority falls on Nova at the end of the day
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gtelnet
Exactly what they are due.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:40 AM
which is what
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
which is what
Whatever their contract states.
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groot
Am I, or are you just deliberately downplaying the part they play?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:40 AM
Giving a ball a push down a hill and watching it roll away does not mean you are keeping the ball rolling.
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Anthonyra
To what extent? Chain variable updates require Nova signature. So in all reality anything chain variable can’t be voted on. Adding new things is a little different but still signature authority falls on Nova at the end of the day
And Foundation since recently.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:40 AM
so what does it state @gtelnet (edited)
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Anthonyra
To what extent? Chain variable updates require Nova signature. So in all reality anything chain variable can’t be voted on. Adding new things is a little different but still signature authority falls on Nova at the end of the day
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:40 AM
and the Foundation.
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It’s only niceties at this point unless we can go full DAO
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From what i've read in discord, they own the HST permanently and it pays 33% dividends.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:41 AM
and FWIW, their contract is with helium inc not with the helium network
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
and the Foundation.
Sure sure, they’re almost the same peeps anyways
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Removing voting power from initial investors, without whom the network wouldn't exist, would have an extreme chilling effect and likely prevent any future investments in the network from any serious investor.
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Anthonyra
Sure sure, they’re almost the same peeps anyways
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:41 AM
Different debate 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Giving a ball a push down a hill and watching it roll away does not mean you are keeping the ball rolling.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:41 AM
this
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Digerati
Removing voting power from initial investors, without whom the network wouldn't exist, would have an extreme chilling effect and likely prevent any future investments in the network from any serious investor.
It would never get passed anyhow.
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Digerati
Removing voting power from initial investors, without whom the network wouldn't exist, would have an extreme chilling effect and likely prevent any future investments in the network from any serious investor.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:42 AM
The investors were never given votes.
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Digerati
Removing voting power from initial investors, without whom the network wouldn't exist, would have an extreme chilling effect and likely prevent any future investments in the network from any serious investor.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:42 AM
stoppp using unfalsifiable arguments, plllleaaasseee 😩
11:42
it doesn't get anyone anywhere
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The investors were never given votes.
They are through their HNT
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So how about the people running an API (one of which is a HST owner), do they get voting power based on their essential part in the network?
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gtelnet
It would never get passed anyhow.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:42 AM
that in and of itself is a problem lmfao
11:42
it's tacitly a conflicted interest
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Digerati
Removing voting power from initial investors, without whom the network wouldn't exist, would have an extreme chilling effect and likely prevent any future investments in the network from any serious investor.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:42 AM
The only reason they suddenly have votes is due to the unapproved shift to use HNT as a governance token. (edited)
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The HST holders are the 'money people' - these are the people who are going to get their CEO friends at the fortune 500 companies to sign up and use the Helium network, so we all can make a few bucks per month.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
that in and of itself is a problem lmfao
I do agree with that. Which is why I was simply trying to make suggestions to make the HIP more palatable to the people who currently hold the voting power.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The only reason they suddenly have votes is due to the unapproved shift to use HNT as a governance token. (edited)
HST has always been paying HNT, so they've always had voting power from that HNT since the current voting system was implemented (which was prior to the $200 million investment a couple months ago)
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Has anyone ever verified that HST owners actually vote?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The only reason they suddenly have votes is due to the unapproved shift to use HNT as a governance token. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:44 AM
also this
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gtelnet
The HST holders are the 'money people' - these are the people who are going to get their CEO friends at the fortune 500 companies to sign up and use the Helium network, so we all can make a few bucks per month.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:44 AM
They make millions off that investment. I'm not crying any tears for them 😉
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:44 AM
people seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that literally nobody agreed to doing it this way lol
11:45
it's convenient circular reasoning to say "because someone did something in the past we should do it that way now"
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Digerati
HST has always been paying HNT, so they've always had voting power from that HNT since the current voting system was implemented (which was prior to the $200 million investment a couple months ago)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:45 AM
Yes, they always got HNT, as per contract. They didn't not have voting power due to that HNT until just recently. (Oct21)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
people seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that literally nobody agreed to doing it this way lol
Good point. What was the voting mechanism prior to it being HNT based?
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To keep the discussion centralized on this HIP instead of whether HST is fair: we still have etl runners, api runner, explorer runners, console runners just to name a few that are not represented and essential.
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gtelnet
Good point. What was the voting mechanism prior to it being HNT based?
Rough consensus in Discord with a thumbs up/thumbs down emoji count lol
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:46 AM
everyone will be all on board when it's MUH PEOPLES NETWORK but then when we get to the substance of taking it from captured by private interests to public community drive development it becomes ALL HAIL THE FOUNDERS
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Digerati
Rough consensus in Discord with a thumbs up/thumbs down emoji count lol
So it was the People's Network (as long as you knew what discord was) lol
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gtelnet
Good point. What was the voting mechanism prior to it being HNT based?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:46 AM
Clunky as best 😉 Discord straw polls, where one person would guess if things "felt" like they should pass.
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gtelnet
Good point. What was the voting mechanism prior to it being HNT based?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:46 AM
literally nothing. posting in discord "do you approve" and thumbs up thumbs down reacting
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Was there a discord vote to shift to HNT based voting? or was that just created
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gtelnet
Was there a discord vote to shift to HNT based voting? or was that just created
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:47 AM
it was just created
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I remember it happened at the end of last year, but I wasn't following it too much back then
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gtelnet
Was there a discord vote to shift to HNT based voting? or was that just created
Created as it made the most sense
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Keenan
Created as it made the most sense
Made the most sense to those who hold the most HNT lol
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gtelnet
Was there a discord vote to shift to HNT based voting? or was that just created
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:47 AM
No. It was just done by Nova
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gtelnet
Made the most sense to those who hold the most HNT lol
Yep with the most interest in the network succeeding
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gtelnet
Was there a discord vote to shift to HNT based voting? or was that just created
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:48 AM
It was a sudo-HIP31-41 system that was put in place without any community approval.
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gtelnet
Made the most sense to those who hold the most HNT lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:48 AM
And that is the crux of the issue here.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
It's the moat factor that seems out of whack for me.
And if I lock up the tokens in my wallet for the purpose of voting, am I not vested in the growth of this project?
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Keenan
Yep with the most interest in the network succeeding
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:50 AM
With the most interest in staying in power to counter the "unwashed masses". Illusion of democracy while actually maintaining control.
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So, we all (in here) agree that there is a better way to do voting, but we still need to convince 50 HST holders to vote with us... so, keep that in mind as you write further drafts. I personally don't think the current version would pass, as it sounds too much like someone who has a bunch of hotspots wrote it.
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Keenan
Yep with the most interest in the network succeeding
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:50 AM
financial interest =/= utilitarian interest
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AndrewsMD
And if I lock up the tokens in my wallet for the purpose of voting, am I not vested in the growth of this project?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:50 AM
validator pool staking is great. 🙂 (edited)
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gtelnet
So, we all (in here) agree that there is a better way to do voting, but we still need to convince 50 HST holders to vote with us... so, keep that in mind as you write further drafts. I personally don't think the current version would pass, as it sounds too much like someone who has a bunch of hotspots wrote it.
Yep.
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AndrewsMD
And if I lock up the tokens in my wallet for the purpose of voting, am I not vested in the growth of this project?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:51 AM
what is so absolutely crucial about locking up in your wallet vs locking up in a validator
11:51
I've yet to hear a reason for that
11:51
it's been asked a handful of times now
11:51
it's not mutually exclusive, yet I hear no first principled justification for the distinction
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:51 AM
Can we all get past the fact of who the author is please? This is far bigger than him 🙂 (no offense @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 🙂 )
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Can we all get past the fact of who the author is please? This is far bigger than him 🙂 (no offense @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 🙂 )
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:52 AM
no offense taken....facts
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11:52
I'm rough around the edges, people don't like me, it's whatever
11:52
someone's gotta do it
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gtelnet
So, we all (in here) agree that there is a better way to do voting, but we still need to convince 50 HST holders to vote with us... so, keep that in mind as you write further drafts. I personally don't think the current version would pass, as it sounds too much like someone who has a bunch of hotspots wrote it.
I am not convinced that this is better than the governing mechanisms being proposed in hips 51 and 52. I’m still a hard no to HIP60, and I do have a fleet of hotspots.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:52 AM
principles are not for the faint of heart
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Can we all get past the fact of who the author is please? This is far bigger than him 🙂 (no offense @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 🙂 )
Yeah sure, so I'll ask again: what about all those participants that are not in the HIP so far. (etl runners, api runner, explorer runners, console runners just to name a few)
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gtelnet
So, we all (in here) agree that there is a better way to do voting, but we still need to convince 50 HST holders to vote with us... so, keep that in mind as you write further drafts. I personally don't think the current version would pass, as it sounds too much like someone who has a bunch of hotspots wrote it.
@🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡, you stood up and took the first stab at it, so kudos on that. It also means you'll get the most bullets flung at you. It comes with the territory. There are a lot of smart people on this discord. Even when they sound like they are attacking, there's a little bit of truth in everything that everyone writes, as they are one of the people you are trying to get to vote with you, so try to glean what you can from each conversation. Most importantly, what can you do to get the HST holders to vote with you.
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groot
Yeah sure, so I'll ask again: what about all those participants that are not in the HIP so far. (etl runners, api runner, explorer runners, console runners just to name a few)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:54 AM
Frankly I'm open to them if it can be shown that they are an essential component, as RadRob did with Routers. 🙂
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Candidly, if there’s no further revisions to this hip, why not write the appropriate code and put it up for a vote so we can either implement it or move forward.
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AndrewsMD
I am not convinced that this is better than the governing mechanisms being proposed in hips 51 and 52. I’m still a hard no to HIP60, and I do have a fleet of hotspots.
Yes, not saying 60 is the better way, just that we all agree there is a better way than the current. Will have to read up on 51/52.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Frankly I'm open to them if it can be shown that they are an essential component, as RadRob did with Routers. 🙂
Who is going to submit your transaction to the validators without the public api? Who is going to maintain full history of the chain without ETLs? (edited)
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gtelnet
@🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡, you stood up and took the first stab at it, so kudos on that. It also means you'll get the most bullets flung at you. It comes with the territory. There are a lot of smart people on this discord. Even when they sound like they are attacking, there's a little bit of truth in everything that everyone writes, as they are one of the people you are trying to get to vote with you, so try to glean what you can from each conversation. Most importantly, what can you do to get the HST holders to vote with you.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:55 AM
You touch on the 800lb gorilla in the room. Why would we vote with HNT on this issue? 😉
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gtelnet
@🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡, you stood up and took the first stab at it, so kudos on that. It also means you'll get the most bullets flung at you. It comes with the territory. There are a lot of smart people on this discord. Even when they sound like they are attacking, there's a little bit of truth in everything that everyone writes, as they are one of the people you are trying to get to vote with you, so try to glean what you can from each conversation. Most importantly, what can you do to get the HST holders to vote with you.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:55 AM
this isn't the first time and it isn't the last....probably a large part of the reason not many people bother to write HIPs. The loudest contributors to the conversations are typically critics who don't want to contribute any creative thinking, just poke holes in others. is what it is.
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groot
Who is going to submit your transaction to the validators without the public api? Who is going to maintain full history of the chain without ETLs? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:56 AM
As I said, I'm open to ideas. I personally don't know every wheel and cog that makes this network function. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You touch on the 800lb gorilla in the room. Why would we vote with HNT on this issue? 😉
So go back to discord 👍 👎 ? lol
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AndrewsMD
Candidly, if there’s no further revisions to this hip, why not write the appropriate code and put it up for a vote so we can either implement it or move forward.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:56 AM
because writing code should not be a technical limitation to the development of HIPs
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gtelnet
So go back to discord 👍 👎 ? lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:56 AM
You see the awkwardness. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You see the awkwardness. 😉
Yes, I learn something new every day, especially when engaging with you group of folks!
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As I said, I'm open to ideas. I personally don't know every wheel and cog that makes this network function. 🙂
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:57 AM
but the fact that you don't will frequently be used as a reason in and of itself against any given HIP
11:57
I mean for gods sake we have people in here talking about "you typo'd 5 words so obviously you're not serious"
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gtelnet
So go back to discord 👍 👎 ? lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:57 AM
I'd say the Foundation should step in, as governance is one of their things as I understand it, but I do worry about the conflicts of interest. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As I said, I'm open to ideas. I personally don't know every wheel and cog that makes this network function. 🙂
And exactly that is what I dislike, we exclude participants (not explicitly but implicitly by considering them non-essential or not even considering them at all) without a thorough understanding of the parties involved.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
this isn't the first time and it isn't the last....probably a large part of the reason not many people bother to write HIPs. The loudest contributors to the conversations are typically critics who don't want to contribute any creative thinking, just poke holes in others. is what it is.
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/06/2022 11:58 AM
Your generalizations of peoples PoV or motivations make the discussion very adversarial. Learn to listen, absorb and redirect. You'll get further in the discussion. Every time some is dismissed, it's a vote against the HiP.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I mean for gods sake we have people in here talking about "you typo'd 5 words so obviously you're not serious"
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:58 AM
Let's not go back to that. 😉
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Who says the Foundation doesn't hold HST?
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groot
And exactly that is what I dislike, we exclude participants (not explicitly but implicitly by considering them non-essential or not even considering them at all) without a thorough understanding of the parties involved.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 11:58 AM
why don't the HST holders chime in here?? 🤔
11:58
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groot
Who says the Foundation doesn't hold HST?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 11:58 AM
Like I said, conflicts 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Click to see attachment 🖼️
And a laughing emoji is unprofessional or shouldn't be taken seriously. Pot, Kettle.
kek 3
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groot
Who says the Foundation doesn't hold HST?
Do HST holders actually have discord accounts? They seem to me they would be more likely to use twitter, while sunning on their yacht (edited)
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groot
And exactly that is what I dislike, we exclude participants (not explicitly but implicitly by considering them non-essential or not even considering them at all) without a thorough understanding of the parties involved.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:00 PM
Dude... the discussion is here to bring that stuff up. It's the whole point. "Hey, we should include X for Y reasons" "Cool, yeah, that fits in the framework, let's add it to the HIP"
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
why don't the HST holders chime in here?? 🤔
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:00 PM
Because the real power doesn't want to overtly show their hand.
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groot
And a laughing emoji is unprofessional or shouldn't be taken seriously. Pot, Kettle.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:00 PM
willing to cop to it
12:00
your turn
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gtelnet
Do HST holders actually have discord accounts? They seem to me they would be more likely to use twitter, while sunning on their yacht (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:01 PM
I have zero doubt that at least some do 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Because the real power doesn't want to overtly show their hand.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:01 PM
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:03 PM
None of us fell off the turnip truck yesterday. We know how these power games work. Do we continue the same crap we see in the world, or do we give real voting power to the people running this network?
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HST holder on their yacht, reading the HIP60 channel
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12:03
that's what I picture lol
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gtelnet
HST holder on their yacht, reading the HIP60 channel
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:04 PM
Last HST wallet I looked at made 2.5 million in HNT over 30 days.
12:05
Anyone know where I can buy some HST?
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gtelnet
HST holder on their yacht, reading the HIP60 channel
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:05 PM
yesss, gooooood.....the plebs have been divided so as to protect my own interests and undermine their own...
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Wondering where you looked, the total pot is 2.5M HNT in 30 days. Did he get 100%? (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:05 PM
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Anyone know where I can buy some HST?
Try to get on the mailing list for the next funding series 🙂
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groot
Wondering where you looked, the total pot is 2.5M HNT in 30 days. Did he get 100%? (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:05 PM
I didn't say 2.5M HNT... 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Anyone know where I can buy some HST?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:06 PM
something something security discussion something rules
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I didn't say 2.5M HNT... 😉
Oh, on this Discord we don't do fiat as you've said to people so many times before 🙃
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groot
Oh, on this Discord we don't do fiat as you've said to people so many times before 🙃
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:07 PM
And you'll note I very carefully didn't 😉 Implied, but didn't say.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:08 PM
2.5 million doll hairs
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
yesss, gooooood.....the plebs have been divided so as to protect my own interests and undermine their own...
"Oh now, Chris V is catching on"
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gtelnet
"Oh now, Chris V is catching on"
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:08 PM
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"This GTel guy is pretty funny"
12:09
ok, wont send any more pics; was just trying to lighten the mood
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:09 PM
Tfw HST holder is leo
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groot
Oh, on this Discord we don't do fiat as you've said to people so many times before 🙃
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:11 PM
Frankly I would have just said the HNT amount if I recalled it 😁 ( Guess technically I could back into it...)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Frankly I would have just said the HNT amount if I recalled it 😁 ( Guess technically I could back into it...)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:12 PM
12:12
".666667.....repeating, of course."
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:12 PM
This was 4-6 weeks ago IIRC 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Frankly I would have just said the HNT amount if I recalled it 😁 ( Guess technically I could back into it...)
I got the gist, in your opinion it's too much compared to average Joe.
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groot
I got the gist, in your opinion it's too much compared to average Joe.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:14 PM
It's too much to continue arguing via nonspecific reasons as to why they deserve to continue to reap rewards indefinitely
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groot
I got the gist, in your opinion it's too much compared to average Joe.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:14 PM
Actually no. Just was saying I'm not feeling bad for them. They invested, and are making out quite well based on the contracted benefits they agreed to. 🙂 Voting was not part of the benefits, and them just grabbing that power is not ok.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:14 PM
For not materially contributing utility
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12:15
I'm perfectly open to an HSTs viewpoint on why they feel they should have a vote for it
12:15
But...
12:15
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:15 PM
Closer to ~125k HNT over 30 days
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:17 PM
It's especially salient when so much of the general discontent on the network is the state of earnings and how low rewards are
12:17
When 30% is just going to people literally doing nothing (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
It's too much to continue arguing via nonspecific reasons as to why they deserve to continue to reap rewards indefinitely
I think there is only one reason as to why they deserve it. Because (I'm assuming) there were a lot of lawyers involved in writing contracts that entitle them to it. They don't need any other reasons. We don't need to agree with it or like it. And honestly, if voting was still done on discord, it would have nothing to do with this conversation. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
It's especially salient when so much of the general discontent on the network is the state of earnings and how low rewards are
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:17 PM
Honestly that's an expected function of the network and I'm not going to factor that into this particular discussion. 🙂
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gtelnet
I think there is only one reason as to why they deserve it. Because (I'm assuming) there were a lot of lawyers involved in writing contracts that entitle them to it. They don't need any other reasons. We don't need to agree with it or like it. And honestly, if voting was still done on discord, it would have nothing to do with this conversation. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:17 PM
Then their beef is with helium inc not the helium network
12:18
Again the contract is with the private entity. Not the network
12:18
So it falls to helium inc (Nova) to meet those obligations.... Not. The network.
12:19
You literally cannot say that helium is not a security while simultaneously arguing that they "have a contract"
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gtelnet
I think there is only one reason as to why they deserve it. Because (I'm assuming) there were a lot of lawyers involved in writing contracts that entitle them to it. They don't need any other reasons. We don't need to agree with it or like it. And honestly, if voting was still done on discord, it would have nothing to do with this conversation. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:19 PM
Voting rights for them only came about when they forced HNT Weighted voting.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:19 PM
That's actually the definition of a security lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Honestly that's an expected function of the network and I'm not going to factor that into this particular discussion. 🙂
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:20 PM
I'm really not assigning too much weight either just illustrating the point that if anyone should be able to make that argument it's them
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
So it falls to helium inc (Nova) to meet those obligations.... Not. The network.
That sounds like an assumption or wish. The only way to get that changed is with lawyers. I don't think you can change their contracts by writing a HIP. (edited)
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gtelnet
That sounds like an assumption or wish. The only way to get that changed is with lawyers. I don't think you can change their contracts by writing a HIP. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:21 PM
It's not, because none of us signed up for that contract
12:21
And none of us is beholden to it
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gtelnet
That sounds like an assumption or wish. The only way to get that changed is with lawyers. I don't think you can change their contracts by writing a HIP. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:21 PM
Nova has stated very clearly that those contract will never be changed.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:21 PM
So either helium inc owns the network
12:21
And it's a security
12:21
Or the public does
12:21
Who did not sign any contract
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
It's not, because none of us signed up for that contract
We didn't invest millions and don't own HST, thus no contract to sign.
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gtelnet
We didn't invest millions and don't own HST, thus no contract to sign.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:21 PM
Doesn't matter
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gtelnet
We didn't invest millions and don't own HST, thus no contract to sign.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:21 PM
This is a tangent.
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12:22
HST does not grant voting rights. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:22 PM
Like I said, contractual agreements between investors and a private entity and on chain governance are not related
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:22 PM
And HNT only has recently after HST holders forced it to be that way.
12:22
Conflict of interest
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And HNT only has recently after HST holders forced it to be that way.
Talk about unfalsifiable claims, this is one.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:23 PM
This whole debate is literally just a sleight of hand to dodge regulatory powers while still maintaining the benefits of a private enterprise
12:23
Change my mind
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groot
Talk about unfalsifiable claims, this is one.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:23 PM
Show us where the vote was
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Like I said, contractual agreements between investors and a private entity and on chain governance are not related
Fair statement. Well said.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Voting rights for them only came about when they forced HNT Weighted voting.
not really...they could have voted in discord polls like literally anyone else before that. Didn't even need to be any kind of participant in the network to do so :). The change to HNT weighted votes did not grant them voting rights that they did not have previously.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Show us where the vote was
Vote or no vote, show me some evidence that the HST owners pushed it through.
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groot
Talk about unfalsifiable claims, this is one.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:24 PM
Does Nova hold HST? Did Nova change the voting system?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Does Nova hold HST? Did Nova change the voting system?
Foundation did, Nova built a system that can do multiple voting metrics.
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Radrob
not really...they could have voted in discord polls like literally anyone else before that. Didn't even need to be any kind of participant in the network to do so :). The change to HNT weighted votes did not grant them voting rights that they did not have previously.
Well said. But it did give them more weight with their votes, compared to a 👍
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gtelnet
Fair statement. Well said.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:25 PM
I'm literally not trying to be contentious it's just the reality that you can't get the benefits of securitized private investment while skipping the regulation that comes with it by waving your hands and saying HSTS, DOESN'T COUNT
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Radrob
not really...they could have voted in discord polls like literally anyone else before that. Didn't even need to be any kind of participant in the network to do so :). The change to HNT weighted votes did not grant them voting rights that they did not have previously.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:25 PM
You'll note I specified HNT weighted voting 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:25 PM
The only way that logic holds is if the token bears no weight in governance
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Radrob
not really...they could have voted in discord polls like literally anyone else before that. Didn't even need to be any kind of participant in the network to do so :). The change to HNT weighted votes did not grant them voting rights that they did not have previously.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:25 PM
Their voting power increased massively due to the shift
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You'll note I specified HNT weighted voting 🙂
no i saw the wording and it still doesn't change the fact that they had voting rights previously....voting power changed though yes
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groot
Foundation did, Nova built a system that can do multiple voting metrics.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:26 PM
Fair enough. Does Foundation members hold HST?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Fair enough. Does Foundation members hold HST?
I don't know, do they?
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groot
I don't know, do they?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:26 PM
Yes
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Radrob
not really...they could have voted in discord polls like literally anyone else before that. Didn't even need to be any kind of participant in the network to do so :). The change to HNT weighted votes did not grant them voting rights that they did not have previously.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:27 PM
so lets go back to discord votes... 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
so lets go back to discord votes... 🙂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:27 PM
spins up 1000 sock accounts 😉 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
spins up 1000 sock accounts 😉 (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:27 PM
hey at least then they'll have to do something
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just calling out misstated comments is all. It's important for good discourse so that others don't get the wrong impression of things
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes
Enough to sway a vote this way?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
spins up 1000 sock accounts 😉 (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:27 PM
in all seriousness probably actually harder because with discord itself you have to verify your account
12:28
meaning have a phone number / 2FA that's unique
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groot
Enough to sway a vote this way?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:28 PM
chuckle Oh yes 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
chuckle Oh yes 🙂
Interested in knowing which address you think is theirs.
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groot
Interested in knowing which address you think is theirs.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:29 PM
Multicoin capital. Follow the money 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:30 PM
pretty convenient as a private entity they don't have to disclose afaik
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:31 PM
HNT weighted voting is just a sham illusion of decentralized control to the people when it's all the same people really in control. They don't trust the public to do the right thing.
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12:31
Frankly, I can't 100% blame them. There are a lot of misinformed voters.
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12:32
HIP55, for example, would not have passed on just votes alone.
12:32
If you're going to keep control, don't lie to our face about it.
12:33
Either give the people a real vote, or end the sham and just be centralized.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Frankly, I can't 100% blame them. There are a lot of misinformed voters.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:33 PM
then they should focus their efforts on public education
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12:33
...not "we know best" assertion of control
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:33 PM
/soapbox
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
then they should focus their efforts on public education
Why is that up to them? I thought everyone was supposed to be equal?
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groot
Why is that up to them? I thought everyone was supposed to be equal?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:34 PM
it's up to all of us. 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:34 PM
the fact that multicoin writes so many of the hips is basically synonymous with corporations drafting legislation and just having (lobbied) members of congress bring them to the floor
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groot
Why is that up to them? I thought everyone was supposed to be equal?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:35 PM
where did I say solely up to them?
12:35
I said "focus their efforts" (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:35 PM
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
where did I say solely up to them?
"then they should focus their effort on public education" in reply to them which referred to nova.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Click to see attachment 🖼️
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:35 PM
whispers "..oohhhh...! he's crying...! 😂 " (edited)
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groot
"then they should focus their effort on public education" in reply to them which referred to nova.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 12:36 PM
actually referred to multicoin
12:36
but it's not an exclusive statement
12:37
it's inherent in the sole purpose of the fund...make money their interest is privatized value capture, not public education
12:37
that would do the opposite of benefit them
12:37
their whole business model is alpha
12:37
hence why earlier I said "financial interest =/= utilitarian interest"
12:38
it seems a lot of the point gets lost in personalization of a systemic point. nobody is demonizing venture capitalists for wanting to make money. it's advocating awareness of the implicit downstream effects.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
whispers "..oohhhh...! he's crying...! 😂 " (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:38 PM
That clip is so good. lmao
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
why don't the HST holders chime in here?? 🤔
How do you know that HST holders have not chimed in?
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AndrewsMD
How do you know that HST holders have not chimed in?
Maybe I am one (not really but a man can hope)
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groot
Maybe I am one (not really but a man can hope)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:41 PM
man.. I wish lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
man.. I wish lol
I’m still on the hunt. Never give up!
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Keenan
I’m still on the hunt. Never give up!
Better watch out though, you won't be allowed to vote anymore Troll
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groot
Better watch out though, you won't be allowed to vote anymore Troll
Always a catch
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Does Nova hold HST? Did Nova change the voting system?
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/06/2022 12:44 PM
Let's try not to conflate things. I see no evidence in Discord that Nova said "use HeliumVote from now on". Nova built and introduced HeliumVote (the icecream test) Foundation chose to adopt the heliumvote for HiP-39 Frankly there is no expectation to use it. If the community simply chose to not vote, we'd force a reevaluation of how to vote.
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Keenan
I’m still on the hunt. Never give up!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:44 PM
real question: Is it actually possible to get HST these days? I can't imagine any current holders giving any up, and they would not allow minting more which would dilute the current holders...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
real question: Is it actually possible to get HST these days? I can't imagine any current holders giving any up, and they would not allow minting more which would dilute the current holders...
I’ve heard it’s near impossible
12:45
But still possible
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groot
Better watch out though, you won't be allowed to vote anymore Troll
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:45 PM
Nah... would just take the HNT and invest it into Hotspots and validators 🙂
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Keenan
I’ve heard it’s near impossible
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:45 PM
Interesting. 🙂
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Everything has a price. Price determination is difficult when nobody wants to get rid of it though.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
Let's try not to conflate things. I see no evidence in Discord that Nova said "use HeliumVote from now on". Nova built and introduced HeliumVote (the icecream test) Foundation chose to adopt the heliumvote for HiP-39 Frankly there is no expectation to use it. If the community simply chose to not vote, we'd force a reevaluation of how to vote.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:46 PM
Actually it's all over the place...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Interesting. 🙂
To be fair, I’ve been trying for 2.5 years now and no luck. Lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Actually it's all over the place...
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/06/2022 12:46 PM
I'm going by a oldest first search of the string HeliumVote.com
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
I'm going by a oldest first search of the string HeliumVote.com
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:47 PM
Every time a vote is called, they direct people to go to that site to vote, and they only accept the results of that vote. They even direct people to it via the helium app that Nova built.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/06/2022 12:47 PM
Enabling is not the same as forcing.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:47 PM
So yes, Nova has backed this current voting system from day 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Every time a vote is called, they direct people to go to that site to vote, and they only accept the results of that vote. They even direct people to it via the helium app that Nova built.
To be fair. Nobody else took the initiative to make anything else
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
Enabling is not the same as forcing.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:48 PM
It is if they will not accept any other vote
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And people were all up in arms over discord straw polls.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It is if they will not accept any other vote
Jamie seems like a reasonable guy, suggest something else.
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this conversation is weird. yes we built it. discord straw polls suck. we wanted a system that allowed more network paritcipants to participate.
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12:48
it's an open source project. PRs welcome
12:49
not everyone is on discord
12:49
but everyone (probably) has a helium wallet app. so we use it to point people to active votes.
12:49
foundation kicks off votes. we don't.
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hashc0de
this conversation is weird. yes we built it. discord straw polls suck. we wanted a system that allowed more network paritcipants to participate.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:50 PM
Not saying it wasn't a cleaner way than straw polls. But saying that " I see no evidence in Discord that Nova said 'use HeliumVote from now on'." is simply not true. Would Nova accept the results of a straw poll on a HIP right now? 🙂 (edited)
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and yes, i wrote some of the terrible code behind it. some other nova devs made it way less terrible.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/06/2022 12:50 PM
@hashc0de If a PR was submitted that changed the weighting from HNT to "assets" bound to the wallet, would it need a vote to be merged? I think this is the big debate.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not saying it wasn't a cleaner way than straw polls. But saying that " I see no evidence in Discord that Nova said 'use HeliumVote from now on'." is simply not true. Would Nova accept the results of a straw poll on a HIP right now? 🙂 (edited)
Wait what? Nobody said that, all they said was here we have this that you could use.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not saying it wasn't a cleaner way than straw polls. But saying that " I see no evidence in Discord that Nova said 'use HeliumVote from now on'." is simply not true. Would Nova accept the results of a straw poll on a HIP right now? 🙂 (edited)
nova doesn't need to accept anything. the network participants need to. or they can choose not to (and maybe fork)
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hashc0de
nova doesn't need to accept anything. the network participants need to. or they can choose not to (and maybe fork)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:52 PM
Nova puts in the code, so when push comes to shove, they have the say in what "vote" gets acknowledged 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Nova puts in the code, so when push comes to shove, they have the say in what "vote" gets acknowledged 🙂
feeling like bernie... "i am asking once again for pull requests"
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They don't have to, you can also pr code, if they don't merge it you can have the foundation force them based on your vote result
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groot
Wait what? Nobody said that, all they said was here we have this that you could use.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:53 PM
So make a HIP and vote via straw poll and see it get ignored. HeliumVote is the defacto, forced method of voting currently.
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for example, would you expect the nova team to be into a "one miner one vote" system as this hip was initially prepared. heck no. we operate routers and we care about usage so obviously router things matter to us. i'm glad at least the conversation has opened up to other participants.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So make a HIP and vote via straw poll and see it get ignored. HeliumVote is the defacto, forced method of voting currently.
Assumption.
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hashc0de
feeling like bernie... "i am asking once again for pull requests"
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:53 PM
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groot
Assumption.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:54 PM
Educated guess.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Educated guess.
Distinction without a difference.
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hashc0de
for example, would you expect the nova team to be into a "one miner one vote" system as this hip was initially prepared. heck no. we operate routers and we care about usage so obviously router things matter to us. i'm glad at least the conversation has opened up to other participants.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:54 PM
Oh heck no. Much as I hate the current system, even I wasn't behind that first draft. 😉
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
@hashc0de If a PR was submitted that changed the weighting from HNT to "assets" bound to the wallet, would it need a vote to be merged? I think this is the big debate.
sorry missed this earlier. yes i think a vote could be initiated that uses a different (non hnt power) metric. like validator only vote or hotspot vote or maybe even a regional vote using hotspot location
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groot
Distinction without a difference.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:55 PM
It is reasonable given current data.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It is reasonable given current data.
Not going to argue with you about this, but you make a lot of assumptions based and present them as 'this is how it will work out'...
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hashc0de
sorry missed this earlier. yes i think a vote could be initiated that uses a different (non hnt power) metric. like validator only vote or hotspot vote or maybe even a regional vote using hotspot location
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:58 PM
Do you think the Foundation should be asked to help with that?
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groot
Not going to argue with you about this, but you make a lot of assumptions based and present them as 'this is how it will work out'...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:58 PM
Fair. Amend to: "This is my conclusion based on currently available facts"
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sure? the code is pretty extensible for a third party to ... sigh open a PR 🙂
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12:59
going full bernie now
12:59
getting my mittens and jacket
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hashc0de
sure? the code is pretty extensible for a third party to ... sigh open a PR 🙂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 12:59 PM
Need one of those "Easy" buttons that is wired to just say "PRs Welcome" lol
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i still need one for "check the pins"
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13:01
still my fav gif on this server
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hashc0de
i still need one for "check the pins"
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:02 PM
That reminds me.. checks the Helium-hiker channel Yup... gif
13:02
lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So make a HIP and vote via straw poll and see it get ignored. HeliumVote is the defacto, forced method of voting currently.
btw the fact that it's "forced" is really an odd characterization. there was a need at a time. (redom vote) it made a whole lot of sense to do something that wasn't on discord. there are tons of folks out in the community who don't participate in these chats and may miss one off votes. we don't have a great way to do signalling of interest/intent like other chains do (bitcoin with upgrades to support certain features, for example). so this has been working for now. i'd personally rather have 1000 voters who have something directly at stake rather than 50-100 randos like that guy NashBode
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hashc0de
btw the fact that it's "forced" is really an odd characterization. there was a need at a time. (redom vote) it made a whole lot of sense to do something that wasn't on discord. there are tons of folks out in the community who don't participate in these chats and may miss one off votes. we don't have a great way to do signalling of interest/intent like other chains do (bitcoin with upgrades to support certain features, for example). so this has been working for now. i'd personally rather have 1000 voters who have something directly at stake rather than 50-100 randos like that guy NashBode
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:11 PM
Not saying it wasn't a cleaner way than straw polls. ❤️ Just saying it added some serious flaws as well 🙂 It didn't have to involve HNT weighted votes. (edited)
13:12
(man... my typing is crap today lol)
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HNT is the thing you get as a reward for providing value to the network. We can agree that the current voting system does not incentivize people to hold HNT which is why the veHNT construction in HIP 51, i think, improves on the flaw that exists with a (future) point in time vote measurement.
13:16
but ignoring past value creators and potential future creators of value seems just as short sighted.
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hashc0de
but ignoring past value creators and potential future creators of value seems just as short sighted.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:18 PM
Votes should go to owners. We (validators, hotspots, routers) own the network. The investors that gave the ball a push down the hill are not doing anything to keep that ball rolling.
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hashc0de
HNT is the thing you get as a reward for providing value to the network. We can agree that the current voting system does not incentivize people to hold HNT which is why the veHNT construction in HIP 51, i think, improves on the flaw that exists with a (future) point in time vote measurement.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:18 PM
Payment for work done is not a measure of ownership. It would be a security otherwise.
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Many of those HST holders are still building on the network?
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hashc0de
Many of those HST holders are still building on the network?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:19 PM
And they can vote via that building. But not just for holding HST 🙂
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hashc0de
Many of those HST holders are still building on the network?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:20 PM
I have no doubt many of them have active hotspots and validators. They vote. 🙂
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Certainly not as many as many folks in the community
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:20 PM
Money in a voting system/buying votes, never goes well. 🙂
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hashc0de
Certainly not as many as many folks in the community
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:21 PM
Their level of building the network is up to them. I'm not going to tell them what to do with their payment for their investments. 😊
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Maybe a pre mine would have been better 🤷🏽. Then there wouldn’t have been a need for the HST boogeyman. (Clearly I don’t agree with this) (edited)
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hashc0de
Maybe a pre mine would have been better 🤷🏽. Then there wouldn’t have been a need for the HST boogeyman. (Clearly I don’t agree with this) (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:23 PM
Perhaps 🙂 Honestly I don't have any issue with them, other than this "power grab" that happened. The community must have a say in how we govern this, and that say was taken away.
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I’m finding it hard to respond when there’s a statement like “power grab” which I presume is pointed at folks who you don’t believe have long term alignment with the network. I’m not going to say our current form of governance is the final form (hardly… hip51 seems like a natural extension to me). It’s a fundamental disagreement which is perfectly fine and in other projects that has led to forks of communities and chain history.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:32 PM
(oh cool. Thanks Fizzy for pinning the updated HIP 🙂 )
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hashc0de
I’m finding it hard to respond when there’s a statement like “power grab” which I presume is pointed at folks who you don’t believe have long term alignment with the network. I’m not going to say our current form of governance is the final form (hardly… hip51 seems like a natural extension to me). It’s a fundamental disagreement which is perfectly fine and in other projects that has led to forks of communities and chain history.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:33 PM
Sorry, tried to soften it with quotes. It was the result, though not necessarily by malice. 🙂
13:34
Maybe "power transfer" would be a better way to say it 🙂
13:35
Though I think the talk of forks is kind of a non-starter due to the hardware aspect of all this. 😉
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 1:52 PM
Given the short timescales being proposed, we’ll give you a simple one-line command to switch your node's implementation to whichever ruleset you want — for or against BIP-119. And going forward, we’ll make it even easier to switch implementations through our app store. 2/
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13:52
Imagine if HIP voting worked like this ... Goals
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Keenan
But still possible
Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams 05/06/2022 1:56 PM
Hijacking one's wallet 😅
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Dumpling_girl | Beware of scams
Hijacking one's wallet 😅
Problem with that is that your hst wont be worth anything anymore🙃
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groot
Problem with that is that your hst wont be worth anything anymore🙃
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 1:58 PM
I think I missed something. What would make the HST worthless?
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groot
Problem with that is that your hst wont be worth anything anymore🙃
maybe not on the forked chain. heh
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I think I missed something. What would make the HST worthless?
If you can crack an account.
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groot
If you can crack an account.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 2:00 PM
Oh.. yeah, if wallets can be cracked, it's all down the tubes. 😄
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groot
Better watch out though, you won't be allowed to vote anymore Troll
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:02 PM
Fine by me
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
Let's try not to conflate things. I see no evidence in Discord that Nova said "use HeliumVote from now on". Nova built and introduced HeliumVote (the icecream test) Foundation chose to adopt the heliumvote for HiP-39 Frankly there is no expectation to use it. If the community simply chose to not vote, we'd force a reevaluation of how to vote.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:04 PM
Who would force? there isn't any mechanism for forcing implementation of anything it's entirely on the honor system, essentially. A large part of the community already chooses to not vote (or is generally unaware of/uninterested in.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
Enabling is not the same as forcing.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:06 PM
It's not only enabling it's actively promoting / encouraging though. 🤷
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Keenan
To be fair. Nobody else took the initiative to make anything else
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:06 PM
Well good thing we have a HIP now. 🙂👍
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Well good thing we have a HIP now. 🙂👍
well, its a start
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hashc0de
but everyone (probably) has a helium wallet app. so we use it to point people to active votes.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:07 PM
Problem isn't with the wallets it's the HNT weighting of votes
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In Helium’s consensus algorithm this would mean that the validators are the only ones that vote
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hashc0de
sure? the code is pretty extensible for a third party to ... sigh open a PR 🙂
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:11 PM
Can we at least acknowledge what you're asking for here? It's not like this is java or C or something. The stack is somewhat niche afaik. Easy to say that already being a developer on the platform
14:11
I'd bet 90% of the community doesn't even know programming fundamentals
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Can we at least acknowledge what you're asking for here? It's not like this is java or C or something. The stack is somewhat niche afaik. Easy to say that already being a developer on the platform
I agree, JavaScript is rarely used
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groot
In Helium’s consensus algorithm this would mean that the validators are the only ones that vote
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:16 PM
Fine with me, what Bitcoin is
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groot
I agree, JavaScript is rarely used
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:16 PM
JavaScript.. ? 🤨
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
JavaScript.. ? 🤨
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:16 PM
Oh, I'm referring to the Blockchain itself
14:19
Also tbh somewhat of a tangent but the vote probably shouldn't be a simple majority it should probably also take voter participation into account
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Also tbh somewhat of a tangent but the vote probably shouldn't be a simple majority it should probably also take voter participation into account
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 2:20 PM
It's not. It's a super majority (2/3)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:21 PM
Sorry should clarify
14:22
Regardless of the split of the vote of those who participate, the outcome should be moot if a certain % of the total number of eligible voters don't participate
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Regardless of the split of the vote of those who participate, the outcome should be moot if a certain % of the total number of eligible voters don't participate
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 2:23 PM
No. You can't force people to vote. Those that care about the direction of the network will vote.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:23 PM
With any given measure being able to be voted on as many times as you want
14:23
It's not forcing
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 2:23 PM
Those that don't, well they don't really matter, now do they? 😉
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:23 PM
It's saying that the changes should err towards not changing anything that there isn't sufficient support for
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How do you even determine how many voters there are?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:24 PM
If not enough people vote then advocates should... Advocate. Lol
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
It's saying that the changes should err towards not changing anything that there isn't sufficient support for
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 2:24 PM
That leads to stagnation and death of the project.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That leads to stagnation and death of the project.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:24 PM
We haven't even discussed the threshold 😆
14:25
Even if it's something minimal like 20%
14:25
Random arbitrary number
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groot
How do you even determine how many voters there are?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:25 PM
Pretty sure number of entities is on chain, no?
14:26
Number of hotspots, number of validators, number of routers...
14:26
Maybe don't make a threshold but give votes more weight to wallets that participate more, with some kind of depreciation over time?
14:26
To encourage people to vote and vote often
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 2:27 PM
@🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ It's a bad idea. You can't hold progress hostage to voter apathy.
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groot
I agree, JavaScript is rarely used
Few.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Maybe don't make a threshold but give votes more weight to wallets that participate more, with some kind of depreciation over time?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 2:28 PM
Active voters are already getting more votes via their involvement with the network. It's a solved issue under this HIP 🙂
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hashc0de
Few.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:31 PM
few [understand]...what? (edited)
14:34
really neither here nor there frankly the point is being able to code should not be a limiting factor in ability to participate in governance and discussion of governance. so the typical "where's the code, write code, push a PR if you don't like it" response comes across as pretty dismissive/obnoxious. And I have a comp sci degree, so. forgive me for considering people outside my particular background. (edited)
14:36
whether the HIP [proposal is right there in the name] comes bundled with an implementation really doesn't impact whether or not the proposal in and of itself is a good idea, less any edge cases where a lack of a technical detail impacts relevant and significant key aspects of the proposal.
14:36
I see way too much criticism of HIPs in general that literally is or boils down to "well this isn't feature complete so it's garbage" (edited)
14:37
strawman arguments, essentially.
14:41
Whole idea of a "community" is supposed to be complimenting viewpoints and skillsets. Someone not being an engineer or writing the actual code doesn't make it not a good idea. Just like just being a dev doesn't make every thought you touch turn to gold. Just run with the good parts and leave the bad....take the baton and run with it instead of taking a mentality of "look for all of the holes and shoot everything down" trial by fire.
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Strictly speaking a HIP without code (if it requires code to be implemented) cannot be 'approved': per hip 7: "Approval is achieved through rough consensus and running code.".
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:45 PM
So how do you propose community driven debate and collaboration happens between the point a conversation is initiated and the time code is written and implemented?
14:46
We should just take every HIP at face value and you just get the one pass? Yeah, waterfall method is great. Agile is for nerds.
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It can be debated and discussed all you want, it just can't be 'approved'.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:46 PM
Well pardon this HIP for being too meta then.
14:47
As @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped said, inherently a bit difficult to approve changes to the system itself through the system [with regards to governance, specifically]. (edited)
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You misunderstand, I'm not saying you can't discuss this HIP. I'm saying if it requires code to be implemented it needs to be there before it is approved in reply to your statement about a hip without being a dev. (edited)
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groot
You misunderstand, I'm not saying you can't discuss this HIP. I'm saying if it requires code to be implemented it needs to be there before it is approved in reply to your statement about a hip without being a dev. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:48 PM
well of course but what's the point of discussing the implementation before the abstract has even been fleshed out
14:49
we haven't even fundamentally come to any kind of rough consensus on the axioms here.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/06/2022 2:49 PM
Makes the HiP sound a little premature. 🤷‍♂️
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
Makes the HiP sound a little premature. 🤷‍♂️
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:49 PM
thats...why it's being discussed.
14:49
what?
14:49
14:50
I feel so gaslit on this, lmao
14:50
wants the conversation to be concluded and mature before the conversation is started
14:50
???
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
what?
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/06/2022 2:50 PM
Your troll skills are top notch. As I said before, you do a great job alienating people.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
Your troll skills are top notch. As I said before, you do a great job alienating people.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:50 PM
14:51
I do admire your ability to keep yourself from banning simply on the grounds of personal disagreement
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groot
It can be debated and discussed all you want, it just can't be 'approved'.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 2:52 PM
Many HIPs have been approved without code. And expecting a HIP to leap fully formed into discord is the height of elitism.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 2:52 PM
like I said....critiquing based on [minimal, not even egregious] typos.... not sure I'm surprised.
14:53
focusing on all the wrong things. the discourse could use a crash course in steel manning. [and I could personally be better at it myself]
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
focusing on all the wrong things. the discourse could use a crash course in steel manning. [and I could personally be better at it myself]
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 2:54 PM
googles "steel manning"
14:55
pauses to turn on safe search
14:55
😅
14:56
Ah... TIL 🙂
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I think more importantly, the hip can not force devs to make the code. And tbh doesn't seem like they going to volunteer to code. So Chris, you will either need to convince nova that this is for the good of the network so they do code, or find someone on the outside. Otherwise it doesn't mater if it passes, and itll be something that just floats around like HIP-24, HIP 32, HIP33, HIP-39, ect.
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Fizzy
I think more importantly, the hip can not force devs to make the code. And tbh doesn't seem like they going to volunteer to code. So Chris, you will either need to convince nova that this is for the good of the network so they do code, or find someone on the outside. Otherwise it doesn't mater if it passes, and itll be something that just floats around like HIP-24, HIP 32, HIP33, HIP-39, ect.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 3:06 PM
Code can always come after a vote. 🙂 Long as the code does what the people voted on of course 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
googles "steel manning"
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 3:06 PM
looking for the most favorable interpretation of other people's claims as opposed to the least possible. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
looking for the most favorable interpretation of other people's claims as opposed to the least possible. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 3:06 PM
yeah, I found it 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/06/2022 3:07 PM
...or perhaps more relevantly to HIPs, "what are the good parts of this suggestion to build on?" vs "what are all of the weaknesses of this suggestion?"
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 3:14 PM
Amusing timing
Tushar — Today at 2:37 PM our proposal is just a suggestion document. real HIPs have code. I think it is worthwhile for the community to vote on the structure in this proposal but no vote can be binding without code imo.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Code can always come after a vote. 🙂 Long as the code does what the people voted on of course 😉
Right.. but nova doesn't have to do that code. In fact, they could write a counter HIP, their way, with their own code. And with HIP60 without code, goes to a vote, passes and pooof.
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Fizzy
Right.. but nova doesn't have to do that code. In fact, they could write a counter HIP, their way, with their own code. And with HIP60 without code, goes to a vote, passes and pooof.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 3:34 PM
Right, not saying it's on Nova 🙂
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Fizzy
Right.. but nova doesn't have to do that code. In fact, they could write a counter HIP, their way, with their own code. And with HIP60 without code, goes to a vote, passes and pooof.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 3:35 PM
HIP60 passes and Nova gets told "Hey, code is being worked on for the HIP that passed. We'll get it to you soon."
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
HIP60 passes and Nova gets told "Hey, code is being worked on for the HIP that passed. We'll get it to you soon."
But because this possibility now exists, and Nova is reading this, they now know that they simply just need to just make a counter HIP with code, vote on it, pass to supersede this one. because lets be honest, they know what we know... you know?
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Fizzy
But because this possibility now exists, and Nova is reading this, they now know that they simply just need to just make a counter HIP with code, vote on it, pass to supersede this one. because lets be honest, they know what we know... you know?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 3:43 PM
They tried already. It never went anywhere (HIP 31, 41) 😉
15:44
And it's being tried again as a rider in 51
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"they" didn't try anything with hip 31 or 41...
15:53
31 and 41 and proposals were just those. never voted, never passed.
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15:53
they might as well be closed imo. i consider them pretty stale
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Also do not think any of helium/nova proposed those, though correct me if I am wrong. Tushar for one of them?
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both
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hashc0de
they might as well be closed imo. i consider them pretty stale
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 3:56 PM
Yeah, they kinda died on the vine 🙂
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Fizzy
Also do not think any of helium/nova proposed those, though correct me if I am wrong. Tushar for one of them?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 3:56 PM
I may be getting people mixed up on that. 😅
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Fizzy
Also do not think any of helium/nova proposed those, though correct me if I am wrong. Tushar for one of them?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/06/2022 4:01 PM
Yeah, Tushar for 41 IIRC
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/07/2022 4:31 AM
Best voting proposal I've seen. 👍 👍
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 10:58 AM
Is on-chain voting something that is that difficult to code? If enough people vote for this HIP, surely one of them knows enough erlang to slap some code together.
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11:03
That being said, as someone who would get close to 1,000 votes under this proposal, I’m against the idea. The HNT holders absolutely should absolutely hold the voting power. The easy fix to the micro-loan problem is to just have a series of random wallet snapshots over time and using some formula to discount the vote of anyone who isn’t a true holder of the HNT
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11:04
@BFGNeil - Trackpac.io was that a bad a assessment? Couldn’t someone just fork the Heliumvotes.com code?
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/07/2022 11:05 AM
there are not enough coders here
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11:05
(i am sad about this fact)
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Max - Just Max
Is on-chain voting something that is that difficult to code? If enough people vote for this HIP, surely one of them knows enough erlang to slap some code together.
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/07/2022 11:47 AM
The app itself is all javascript. I know there are at least a few coders with the skills for that. With the right "solution" I would consider voluntelling one of my devs.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
Best voting proposal I've seen. 👍 👍
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 12:23 PM
appreciate that
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Max - Just Max
That being said, as someone who would get close to 1,000 votes under this proposal, I’m against the idea. The HNT holders absolutely should absolutely hold the voting power. The easy fix to the micro-loan problem is to just have a series of random wallet snapshots over time and using some formula to discount the vote of anyone who isn’t a true holder of the HNT
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 12:24 PM
care to elaborate on why they "absolutely" hold voting power?
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
The app itself is all javascript. I know there are at least a few coders with the skills for that. With the right "solution" I would consider voluntelling one of my devs.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 12:24 PM
what is it, react?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/07/2022 12:25 PM
As someone that owns personal and "lease to own" units I'm okay with my lease provider using "our" vote power.
12:26
also having 5 more units out there hosted, don't see why i shouldn't get 5x the vote of someone owning 1 unit.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
what is it, react?
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/07/2022 12:27 PM
yes.
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Max - Just Max
That being said, as someone who would get close to 1,000 votes under this proposal, I’m against the idea. The HNT holders absolutely should absolutely hold the voting power. The easy fix to the micro-loan problem is to just have a series of random wallet snapshots over time and using some formula to discount the vote of anyone who isn’t a true holder of the HNT
Agree, and almost all HST holders would only benefit from this proposal as they run a ton of validators in totality. But it's still the wrong approach for the wrong reasons
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capcom
Agree, and almost all HST holders would only benefit from this proposal as they run a ton of validators in totality. But it's still the wrong approach for the wrong reasons
Then that's great! Validators get voting power in this proposal. And with tons of them running validators, this should be an easy pass for them, right? Though I am confused on your "wrong approach for the wrong reasons" comment. The approach of this is to get a better determining factor for voting worth in Helium, so "The rich list" is not the determining factor of any vote. What do you think this approach is, or the reasons for it?
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capcom
Agree, and almost all HST holders would only benefit from this proposal as they run a ton of validators in totality. But it's still the wrong approach for the wrong reasons
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 1:21 PM
feel free to let us know what the correct approach for the correct reasons is. 👍
13:21
let he who has written a better HIP cast the first stone
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Fizzy
Then that's great! Validators get voting power in this proposal. And with tons of them running validators, this should be an easy pass for them, right? Though I am confused on your "wrong approach for the wrong reasons" comment. The approach of this is to get a better determining factor for voting worth in Helium, so "The rich list" is not the determining factor of any vote. What do you think this approach is, or the reasons for it?
I think HNT is the right mechanism for voting, so even though this proposal would actually benefit me I still think it’s incorrect. I’ve explained why many times in this channel already
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 2:57 PM
People buy hotspots because they think they will earn more HNT running a hotspot compared to just buying it on the market. Everyone had a choice at the time of purchase on how they wanted to participate in the network. Voting by HNT is the simplest solution and ensures those that have invested the most can direct their investment the best way they see fit. For example, look at HIP-55. This was on the road map for longer than most of us have even been involved in the project. A one miner one vote type vote would have resulted in it being voted down because people with miners didn’t want to lose their challenge construction rewards, despite the fact that their hardware couldn’t reliably complete challenges.
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15:00
At some point you felt buying hotspots would yield you more HNT than buying the coin directly. Maybe you haven’t hit that point yet or maybe you made a miscalculation but everyone made a choice at some point on how you wanted to put your dollars towards building this network.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:00 PM
>Everyone had a choice at the time of purchase on how they wanted to participate in the network Everyone had the option to buy HSTs...? 🤔
15:00
Nobody in this chat really seems to understand or respect the first mover moat factor.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
>Everyone had a choice at the time of purchase on how they wanted to participate in the network Everyone had the option to buy HSTs...? 🤔
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:00 PM
No but you had a choice, you could buy HNT, buy hotspots, or keep that money in your pocket.
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Carl-bot BOT 05/07/2022 3:00 PM
No discussions on buying or selling HNT please!
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Max - Just Max
No but you had a choice, you could buy HNT, buy hotspots, or keep that money in your pocket.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:01 PM
which isn't being questioned. this is a strawman. I'm asking specifically about HSTs.
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Max - Just Max
That being said, as someone who would get close to 1,000 votes under this proposal, I’m against the idea. The HNT holders absolutely should absolutely hold the voting power. The easy fix to the micro-loan problem is to just have a series of random wallet snapshots over time and using some formula to discount the vote of anyone who isn’t a true holder of the HNT
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:01 PM
There are far more problems than just HNT loans. 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
which isn't being questioned. this is a strawman. I'm asking specifically about HSTs.
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:01 PM
How is that a straw man, that’s literally what you did
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:03 PM
because you're not saying anything that is being contested or is in conflict with the premise of the HIP as it stands. HSTs are the core point here. They don't add any value to the network on an ongoing basis. If someone wants to point out some data that shows they haven't received a fair and reasonable return on investment, I'd be glad to be informed.
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:03 PM
Why stop at hotspots? Should you get voting power for buying an outdoor enclosure or an antenna from Fizzy?
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Max - Just Max
Why stop at hotspots? Should you get voting power for buying an outdoor enclosure or an antenna from Fizzy?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:04 PM
this isn't a serious question
15:04
you're clearly intelligent enough to recognize and understand what "utility" means
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Max - Just Max
Why stop at hotspots? Should you get voting power for buying an outdoor enclosure or an antenna from Fizzy?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:05 PM
It didn't stop at hotspots... (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:05 PM
I feel like this entire discourse is an exercise in convincing people why it's not okay to steal candy from a baby. it just feels so much like it shouldn't need to be explained...lol. money has no place in governance.
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15:06
honestly why I'm struggling so much to articulate any further
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
because you're not saying anything that is being contested or is in conflict with the premise of the HIP as it stands. HSTs are the core point here. They don't add any value to the network on an ongoing basis. If someone wants to point out some data that shows they haven't received a fair and reasonable return on investment, I'd be glad to be informed.
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:06 PM
HST is a vesting schedule for the original investors. If they get it all up front there’s nothing stopping them from dumping it on the market. By having a payout schedule it incentivizes them to hold the coins long term.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:06 PM
it's like I'm making an ethical / moralistic argument to people who don't share the same ethic
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Max - Just Max
People buy hotspots because they think they will earn more HNT running a hotspot compared to just buying it on the market. Everyone had a choice at the time of purchase on how they wanted to participate in the network. Voting by HNT is the simplest solution and ensures those that have invested the most can direct their investment the best way they see fit. For example, look at HIP-55. This was on the road map for longer than most of us have even been involved in the project. A one miner one vote type vote would have resulted in it being voted down because people with miners didn’t want to lose their challenge construction rewards, despite the fact that their hardware couldn’t reliably complete challenges.
This is a timeline problem though. Hotspots will only earn less and less HNT (value does not matter here, because you vote with HNT). We have long passed the inflection point of this. So what you are basically saying here is that owning a hotspot is less valuable than an HNT (no matter where you get it, be it the market, or your a successful scammer) (edited)
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Max - Just Max
HST is a vesting schedule for the original investors. If they get it all up front there’s nothing stopping them from dumping it on the market. By having a payout schedule it incentivizes them to hold the coins long term.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:07 PM
there is no vesting without security. so I just wish people would stop making arguments that are premised on being functionally a security when constantly talking about how it's not a security
15:07
it cannot. be both.
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Max - Just Max
HST is a vesting schedule for the original investors. If they get it all up front there’s nothing stopping them from dumping it on the market. By having a payout schedule it incentivizes them to hold the coins long term.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:08 PM
@Keenan why don't you elaborate on the eyeroll for us?
15:08
sorry my ethic offends you, I guess?
15:08
I realize not everyone operates on first principles.
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Fizzy
This is a timeline problem though. Hotspots will only earn less and less HNT (value does not matter here, because you vote with HNT). We have long passed the inflection point of this. So what you are basically saying here is that owning a hotspot is less valuable than an HNT (no matter where you get it, be it the market, or your a successful scammer) (edited)
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:08 PM
That’s not true though. If HNT goes up in price in the future and that math changes though. But yes current market conditions would suggest you are better off to buy
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Max - Just Max
That’s not true though. If HNT goes up in price in the future and that math changes though. But yes current market conditions would suggest you are better off to buy
We don't vote in price.
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Fizzy
We don't vote in price.
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:09 PM
You purchase a hotspot or HNT in price though
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Max - Just Max
You purchase a hotspot or HNT in price though
I don't see your point? If you are referring to the cost of 1 vote?
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:10 PM
I can’t be the only one who in November weighed the options of buying 10 HNT or one hotspot then today weighed the options of buying 33 HNT or 1 hotspot
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Your looking at this equation wrong. While price of a hotspot is part of the equation, it is not the end result for equilibrium.
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Max - Just Max
I can’t be the only one who in November weighed the options of buying 10 HNT or one hotspot then today weighed the options of buying 33 HNT or 1 hotspot
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:12 PM
So you think it's ok that someone that mined for 1 month, 6 months ago has 10x the voting power as someone that mines for 1 month right now?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:12 PM
like if I said the US (or any other country's) elections should be based on how many dollars you have in your bank account you'd think I was crazy. I don't know how that doesn't easily extend to any other form of governance.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:12 PM
Both put in the same work for the network. Why are their votes not equal?
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Max - Just Max
I can’t be the only one who in November weighed the options of buying 10 HNT or one hotspot then today weighed the options of buying 33 HNT or 1 hotspot
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:13 PM
I'm still struggling to understand what this has to do with whether money = vote
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So you think it's ok that someone that mined for 1 month, 6 months ago has 10x the voting power as someone that mines for 1 month right now?
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:13 PM
Yes, the person who has been with the project for 6x as long should have more voting power
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Max - Just Max
Yes, the person who has been with the project for 6x as long should have more voting power
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:14 PM
No... not 6 months longer. They both mined for 1 month.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I'm still struggling to understand what this has to do with whether money = vote
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:14 PM
This isn’t a government, this is a tech company. This is how every other successful company operates
facepalm 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:14 PM
I don't have extra voting power in an election just because I'm older that the next guy.
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Max - Just Max
This isn’t a government, this is a tech company. This is how every other successful company operates
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:14 PM
this isn't a company. hence why it's "not a security"
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Max - Just Max
Yes, the person who has been with the project for 6x as long should have more voting power
I don't think anyone is debating that. But at the current moment you do not need to be in the project long, you just need to have a lot of $ willing to flow in and out at any given time there is a vote. (And lets not get into the "there's no data" bs) (edited)
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Max - Just Max
This isn’t a government, this is a tech company. This is how every other successful company operates
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:15 PM
This is governance in a decentralized system. So, yes, it is 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:15 PM
can we get gary fucking gensler in the chat
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15:15
jfc lol
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Max - Just Max
This isn’t a government, this is a tech company. This is how every other successful company operates
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:16 PM
We're not here to copy the same old BS systems of past companies. We're here to build something better. Let's not screw up the opportunity. 🙂
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Max - Just Max
Yes, the person who has been with the project for 6x as long should have more voting power
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:16 PM
make a reasoned argument as to why. please. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
can we get gary fucking gensler in the chat
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:17 PM
Don't say his name 3 times. 😉
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:17 PM
if you show up now or show up 6 months ago it doesn't materially change the legitimacy of your input / perspective
15:17
a sound argument is a sound argument.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
We're not here to copy the same old BS systems of past companies. We're here to build something better. Let's not screw up the opportunity. 🙂
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:17 PM
I don’t see it that way. We are Uber drivers who get compensated for the work we do.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:17 PM
there's so much elitism under the surface of that position
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
make a reasoned argument as to why. please. (edited)
Well I guess chris is debating that.
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Max - Just Max
I don’t see it that way. We are Uber drivers who get compensated for the work we do.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:17 PM
Uber drivers don't own their network 🙂
15:18
Uber is still centralized
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:19 PM
uber is also a security
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:19 PM
Not that we're 100% decentralization yet either. But no reason not to work towards that goal. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Uber drivers don't own their network 🙂
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:19 PM
Neither do you and me. You sell network coverage to others and get compensation for it just like Uber drivers get compensated for taking you home from the bar. If you don’t do, someone else will. If they won’t, Uber prices surge and eventually someone will just like the transmit scale in your area will fluctuate.
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Max - Just Max
Neither do you and me. You sell network coverage to others and get compensation for it just like Uber drivers get compensated for taking you home from the bar. If you don’t do, someone else will. If they won’t, Uber prices surge and eventually someone will just like the transmit scale in your area will fluctuate.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:20 PM
Yes, we do. We own the network. 🙂
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Max - Just Max
Neither do you and me. You sell network coverage to others and get compensation for it just like Uber drivers get compensated for taking you home from the bar. If you don’t do, someone else will. If they won’t, Uber prices surge and eventually someone will just like the transmit scale in your area will fluctuate.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:20 PM
so you think HST owners own the network? 🤔
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Max - Just Max
Neither do you and me. You sell network coverage to others and get compensation for it just like Uber drivers get compensated for taking you home from the bar. If you don’t do, someone else will. If they won’t, Uber prices surge and eventually someone will just like the transmit scale in your area will fluctuate.
Wait, then who owns it, who can I sue?
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Fizzy
Wait, then who owns it, who can I sue?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:21 PM
"They"
15:21
lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
"They"
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:22 PM
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And in the Uber example, do people normally sue Uber or the driver?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Click to see attachment 🖼️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:22 PM
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Fizzy
And in the Uber example, do people normally sue Uber or the driver?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:23 PM
Likely Uber since they have actual money
15:23
And ownership
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This
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Fizzy
And in the Uber example, do people normally sue Uber or the driver?
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:25 PM
Do I place an order with fizzy’s car service or Uber? Just like I don’t use Fizzy coin to pay for DC from your hotspots, I pay the blockchain for coverage, you provide the coverage or someone else provides the coverage, I don’t care. The block chain is then the settlement service that pays you just like Uber pays their drivers
15:26
You can sell that HNT if you want, just like that Uber driver can buy shares of Uber with the dollars they get
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Marvelous
This
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:26 PM
Speculators don't get votes. They are users, not owners. HNT is not a governance token.
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Marvelous
This
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/07/2022 3:26 PM
The same could be said for the first 10K hotspots. It would have gone down in flames if people didn't take a risk.
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Max - Just Max
You can sell that HNT if you want, just like that Uber driver can buy shares of Uber with the dollars they get
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:27 PM
Yes... buy in. Holding dollars from Uber does not give you votes.
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Max - Just Max
Do I place an order with fizzy’s car service or Uber? Just like I don’t use Fizzy coin to pay for DC from your hotspots, I pay the blockchain for coverage, you provide the coverage or someone else provides the coverage, I don’t care. The block chain is then the settlement service that pays you just like Uber pays their drivers
Right, but if I am the rider, who do I sue? Still have not answered. :<
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
The same could be said for the first 10K hotspots. It would have gone down in flames if people didn't take a risk.
This too.
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:27 PM
I’m also an elitist who thinks 99% of people, myself included, are morons who have no idea how to run a wireless network Edit: Except people who buy my antennas. Y’all are smart (edited)
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Max - Just Max
I’m also an elitist who thinks 99% of people, myself included, are morons who have no idea how to run a wireless network Edit: Except people who buy my antennas. Y’all are smart (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:28 PM
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes... buy in. Holding dollars from Uber does not give you votes.
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:28 PM
But buying shares in Uber does
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Max - Just Max
Do I place an order with fizzy’s car service or Uber? Just like I don’t use Fizzy coin to pay for DC from your hotspots, I pay the blockchain for coverage, you provide the coverage or someone else provides the coverage, I don’t care. The block chain is then the settlement service that pays you just like Uber pays their drivers
Also still not answering who owns the uber network, and who I can sue.
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Max - Just Max
But buying shares in Uber does
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:29 PM
Exactly. Buying shares is ownership. Buying hotspots (and installing them), running routers and validators.. that is ownership. Hodling HNT is not. 🙂
15:29
Since HNT is not a security
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Exactly. Buying shares is ownership. Buying hotspots (and installing them), running routers and validators.. that is ownership. Hodling HNT is not. 🙂
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:30 PM
Driving Uber doesn’t make you an owner. Having shares in the company does. We just get compensated in the inverse way
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MY DATA WAS IN A TERRIABLE ACCEIDENT AND NEVER GOT DELIVERED, WHO OWNS THIS NETWORK, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE.
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Max - Just Max
Driving Uber doesn’t make you an owner. Having shares in the company does. We just get compensated in the inverse way
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:30 PM
Apples and oranges. Uber owns the network.
15:31
@Max - Just Max Might want to answer Fizzy before he loses it. lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Since HNT is not a security
Then let’s just run this network and remove hnt altogether. Let’s see how that goes. (edited)
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Fizzy
MY DATA WAS IN A TERRIABLE ACCEIDENT AND NEVER GOT DELIVERED, WHO OWNS THIS NETWORK, WHO IS RESPONSIBLE.
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/07/2022 3:32 PM
Speaking of Data. What did you do with my data Fizzy? Are you the Manager? 😜
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:32 PM
Who gets sued in the case of a data breach or am interesting question
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Keenan
Then let’s just run this network and remove hnt altogether. Let’s see how that goes. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:32 PM
Might want to still be incentivized to build the network 😉
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
because you're not saying anything that is being contested or is in conflict with the premise of the HIP as it stands. HSTs are the core point here. They don't add any value to the network on an ongoing basis. If someone wants to point out some data that shows they haven't received a fair and reasonable return on investment, I'd be glad to be informed.
Most investors don't get involved in a project like this for a "fair and reasonable return on investment". They put millions on the line to grow it tenfold or more. Have they done that yet? I don't know. You seem to have a feeling that investors (HST holders in this case) just write a check and you never hear from them again. In my experience, most investors become champions for the business. They are focused on making the business a huge success, so that they can get a lot more than "fair and reasonable". They are the people that will get their CEO buddies at the Fortune 1000 to give this crazy Helium thing a shot. Investors are dealmakers. They get meetings with execs at the top companies. They put together deals larger than most of us can even comprehend. I suspect some of them will be (or have already been) directly responsible for Helium landing some of their largest clients and partners. Perhaps the Dish deal was brought together by an HST holder? It could definitely benefit Helium to do more PR around the HST holders and what they do the network today, but I'm sure they bring much more value than any single one of us on discord thinks.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
Speaking of Data. What did you do with my data Fizzy? Are you the Manager? 😜
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:32 PM
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Might want to still be incentivized to build the network 😉
Oh. Almost like it’s important… lol
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Max - Just Max
Who gets sued in the case of a data breach or am interesting question
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:33 PM
That is an interesting one. Not sure 🙂
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Keenan
Oh. Almost like it’s important… lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:33 PM
Same as getting paid to work. But that payment does not give voting rights at your place of work. 🙂
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/07/2022 3:34 PM
Who do I blame for 5 hours of missing data? My customer has a fridge full of spoiled food. Is Nova the brunt of that? I doubt the HS owner is. Obviously small scale, but lets put it in perspective.
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gtelnet
Most investors don't get involved in a project like this for a "fair and reasonable return on investment". They put millions on the line to grow it tenfold or more. Have they done that yet? I don't know. You seem to have a feeling that investors (HST holders in this case) just write a check and you never hear from them again. In my experience, most investors become champions for the business. They are focused on making the business a huge success, so that they can get a lot more than "fair and reasonable". They are the people that will get their CEO buddies at the Fortune 1000 to give this crazy Helium thing a shot. Investors are dealmakers. They get meetings with execs at the top companies. They put together deals larger than most of us can even comprehend. I suspect some of them will be (or have already been) directly responsible for Helium landing some of their largest clients and partners. Perhaps the Dish deal was brought together by an HST holder? It could definitely benefit Helium to do more PR around the HST holders and what they do the network today, but I'm sure they bring much more value than any single one of us on discord thinks.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:35 PM
If we knew the price of HST, we could do the calc on their returns so far. 🙂
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:35 PM
We’re providing a service and getting compensated for it. Now where’s Elizabeth Warren to yell at Capcom about paying for my health insurance? (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If we knew the price of HST, we could do the calc on their returns so far. 🙂
Would it be as simple a calculation as "total invested dollars / HST on the market" to get an average HST price?
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Marvelous
This
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:37 PM
this actually feels pretty counter to the spirit of "the peoples network" and I'd say it's a bit disconcerting that the co-founder/CEO doesn't realize that's what he's saying there... "feels bizarre to me that a $500 hotspot owner is 'more valuable' than someone injecting hundreds of thousands or millions of $ of value into the ecosystem" sorry but how much value do hotspots collectively bring into the ecosystem..? 🤔
15:37
bit egotistical IMO
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These comparisons to how Uber is run does not equal how it should be run on Helium. It’s just not the same.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:38 PM
literally nobody is saying any one hotspot is...that's asinine
15:38
what exactly is it that we think "the peoples network" is/means? 🙃
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:40 PM
The Peoples Network is a marketing slogan. No one gets a portion of my company for buying the Peoples Antenna
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Max - Just Max
The Peoples Network is a marketing slogan. No one gets a portion of my company for buying the Peoples Antenna
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:40 PM
cringe
15:41
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:41 PM
Bobcat is the peoples miner. I own zero shares of bobcat
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
this actually feels pretty counter to the spirit of "the peoples network" and I'd say it's a bit disconcerting that the co-founder/CEO doesn't realize that's what he's saying there... "feels bizarre to me that a $500 hotspot owner is 'more valuable' than someone injecting hundreds of thousands or millions of $ of value into the ecosystem" sorry but how much value do hotspots collectively bring into the ecosystem..? 🤔
Well I have forgotten the context of that statement, I want to REITERATE That I do not think HST holders should be disregarded, or lower. But the bar between the kings (HST) and the common folk (hotspots) in HNT earns PER DAY has grown to far apart, and will grow ever further apart faster and faster. There is always an increasing amount of hotspots share the reward pool, while there is a stagnate amount of HST holders that earn a steady amount, no matter the network daily drama. ****Though Chris has his own thoughts... (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 3:43 PM
tell me you don't get the culture without telling me...
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:43 PM
Was bitcoin VC funded? Was helium VC funded? Just because it’s crypto and there’s a blockchain doesn’t mean they are the same
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gtelnet
Would it be as simple a calculation as "total invested dollars / HST on the market" to get an average HST price?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:49 PM
Hmm... perhaps 🙂
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 3:49 PM
Glad some people are screenshotting things I say in here to somehow expose me on Twitter.
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Is the problem answering these questions because this thing really is decentralized and in that case no one owns any of it. Your hotspot is not the thing. You are a customer of the thing and you are being paid for the service you provide. (edited)
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Max - Just Max
Glad some people are screenshotting things I say in here to somehow expose me on Twitter.
Really?
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Validators provide a service to the thing and get paid for it.
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Max - Just Max
Was bitcoin VC funded? Was helium VC funded? Just because it’s crypto and there’s a blockchain doesn’t mean they are the same
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:52 PM
Correct. This is not a crypto project 🙂
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HNT holders put liquidity into the thing and get compensated for it.
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KeithR
Is the problem answering these questions because this thing really is decentralized and in that case no one owns any of it. Your hotspot is not the thing. You are a customer of the thing and you are being paid for the service you provide. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:53 PM
We are owners, not consumers.
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KeithR
HNT holders put liquidity into the thing and get compensated for it.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:54 PM
Holding HNT gives compensation?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
We are owners, not consumers.
I think that might be a loose interpretation of the thing. For if it were 100% true, these would be easy questions to answer
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Fizzy
Well I have forgotten the context of that statement, I want to REITERATE That I do not think HST holders should be disregarded, or lower. But the bar between the kings (HST) and the common folk (hotspots) in HNT earns PER DAY has grown to far apart, and will grow ever further apart faster and faster. There is always an increasing amount of hotspots share the reward pool, while there is a stagnate amount of HST holders that earn a steady amount, no matter the network daily drama. ****Though Chris has his own thoughts... (edited)
This too. I think the current system of HNT weight per vote has flaws. I’m just not sure what the solution is. There’s been a lot of numbers and calculations thrown around in this thread, some make sense, others don’t. Like running 20-30 hotspots does not equal running one validator, I’m sorry. That’s a shit ton of Hnt in lockup to run a Val. Other ideas I like, like capping each groups voting power. Hotspots vote and count as a certain percentage, same for Val’s, routers, Hnt holders. There are many moving parts in Helium that are not just hotspots, validators, routers. Like @gtelnet was saying, big investors have interest to get their CEO buds to adopt the network. How are we to give these people a vote if not by HNT weight/lock? For 5G for example, I really hope we get a T-Mobile, AT&T or Verizon type deal. These partners will likely invest a great deal in Helium. They should get a vote. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
We're not here to copy the same old BS systems of past companies. We're here to build something better. Let's not screw up the opportunity. 🙂
This might just be the understatement of the year. This “thing” is new. It needs a new answer.
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15:56
Kentucky Derby about to go…
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Fizzy
Well I have forgotten the context of that statement, I want to REITERATE That I do not think HST holders should be disregarded, or lower. But the bar between the kings (HST) and the common folk (hotspots) in HNT earns PER DAY has grown to far apart, and will grow ever further apart faster and faster. There is always an increasing amount of hotspots share the reward pool, while there is a stagnate amount of HST holders that earn a steady amount, no matter the network daily drama. ****Though Chris has his own thoughts... (edited)
Following up, and I hope people see this logic. https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13cAirRyuUzK9pWNHQoQnk6ikLYCxHyACQvV6RJMdt4ymyNpD1K This account has 0.55 HST, and currently earns 1.7 HNT per day. This is also the LOWEST HST holder account. As even top legitimate hotspot earners dipped well below this point, they will continue to do so as the network grows built by the common folk, while these HST holders continually earn the same with only a ever so slightly decrease in earnings over yearrrrsss. ^ So that is current hotspot owners, now on to new ones: There is now a diminishing value to evening buying a hotspot (forget $), because with each day that passes, your voting power may never be greater than your previous onboarded hotspot. .....unless you got $, then you can buy votes. so yeah. (edited)
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Marvelous
This too. I think the current system of HNT weight per vote has flaws. I’m just not sure what the solution is. There’s been a lot of numbers and calculations thrown around in this thread, some make sense, others don’t. Like running 20-30 hotspots does not equal running one validator, I’m sorry. That’s a shit ton of Hnt in lockup to run a Val. Other ideas I like, like capping each groups voting power. Hotspots vote and count as a certain percentage, same for Val’s, routers, Hnt holders. There are many moving parts in Helium that are not just hotspots, validators, routers. Like @gtelnet was saying, big investors have interest to get their CEO buds to adopt the network. How are we to give these people a vote if not by HNT weight/lock? For 5G for example, I really hope we get a T-Mobile, AT&T or Verizon type deal. These partners will likely invest a great deal in Helium. They should get a vote. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 3:58 PM
The are not owners just for using our network. If they want votes, they can help make the network function with hotspots, routers, and validators. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The are not owners just for using our network. If they want votes, they can help make the network function with hotspots, routers, and validators. 🙂
If you say so.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 4:01 PM
So how many votes did the HST holders have before HNT was suddenly, and without community approval, made in to a governance token? 🤔
16:01
We're not taking anything away from them that they were not supposed to have in the first place. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
We're not taking anything away from them that they were not supposed to have in the first place. (edited)
Who said they were not supposed to have a vote? Was there a vote on that?
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Marvelous
Who said they were not supposed to have a vote? Was there a vote on that?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 4:06 PM
Was it in the contract? No. Then there you go. 🙂
16:06
There was no vote to make HNT weighted voting a thing. (edited)
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And discord emoji votes were used before that.
16:08
HNT weighted votes makes a lot more sense than what was before
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Marvelous
And discord emoji votes were used before that.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 4:08 PM
Yes, the old straw polls, that were passed or failed based on the opinion of one or a few people in power.
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I’m not disagreeing there are flaws
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 4:09 PM
Not saying this is not a slightly better system. But we can do better 🙂
16:11
The HNT weighted system was put in place by the same people that hold large amounts of HNT. Bit of a conflict of interest, right? 🙂
16:12
Gotta jet and get some stuff done here in the shop. Talk you all later. 🙂 👋
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Keenan
Really?
Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 4:24 PM
Yea I mean whatever, I wouldn’t say things in a public forum I don’t want to be seen but screenshotting partial quotes without context and posting it on twitter is a weird way to defend the HIP you write.
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Max - Just Max
Yea I mean whatever, I wouldn’t say things in a public forum I don’t want to be seen but screenshotting partial quotes without context and posting it on twitter is a weird way to defend the HIP you write.
Well, you actually were not really talking about the HIP anymore.
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Max - Just Max 05/07/2022 4:27 PM
When was that?
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Max - Just Max
Yea I mean whatever, I wouldn’t say things in a public forum I don’t want to be seen but screenshotting partial quotes without context and posting it on twitter is a weird way to defend the HIP you write.
Noted 👍 (edited)
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Fizzy
Following up, and I hope people see this logic. https://explorer.helium.com/accounts/13cAirRyuUzK9pWNHQoQnk6ikLYCxHyACQvV6RJMdt4ymyNpD1K This account has 0.55 HST, and currently earns 1.7 HNT per day. This is also the LOWEST HST holder account. As even top legitimate hotspot earners dipped well below this point, they will continue to do so as the network grows built by the common folk, while these HST holders continually earn the same with only a ever so slightly decrease in earnings over yearrrrsss. ^ So that is current hotspot owners, now on to new ones: There is now a diminishing value to evening buying a hotspot (forget $), because with each day that passes, your voting power may never be greater than your previous onboarded hotspot. .....unless you got $, then you can buy votes. so yeah. (edited)
My theory is that some of the HST holders are Foundation/Helium team (I wouldn't want to say if I were them). Some of which may have no interest in running a fleet of hotspots, routers, or validators. There's those HST folks with millions, the big money CEO folk who push Helium as a thing in the real world. Or those in this discord with the green name flair, who bust their asses updating code on birthdays, late nights, the minor coronaries. I'm sure they have stress, dealing with the bitching from techbros who are greedy and don't give a shit about them, and they're STILL HERE to support your fellow hotspot and validator peeps. Some HST holders maybe invested millions and are doing nothing, but I'm sure there are a good number making a positive impact in Helium and it's getting overlooked in this convo. The current vote by HNT weight has flaws, but completely discounting the HST holders is not the solution. I don't have any HST btw (wish I did). (edited)
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Marvelous
My theory is that some of the HST holders are Foundation/Helium team (I wouldn't want to say if I were them). Some of which may have no interest in running a fleet of hotspots, routers, or validators. There's those HST folks with millions, the big money CEO folk who push Helium as a thing in the real world. Or those in this discord with the green name flair, who bust their asses updating code on birthdays, late nights, the minor coronaries. I'm sure they have stress, dealing with the bitching from techbros who are greedy and don't give a shit about them, and they're STILL HERE to support your fellow hotspot and validator peeps. Some HST holders maybe invested millions and are doing nothing, but I'm sure there are a good number making a positive impact in Helium and it's getting overlooked in this convo. The current vote by HNT weight has flaws, but completely discounting the HST holders is not the solution. I don't have any HST btw (wish I did). (edited)
That 'some' is way less then you think. This doesn't mean that devs have there own bank of HNT (which is most likely validators now). Way back in the day, having just 1 hotspot earned hundreds or thousands of HNT. Any rate, difference between me and Chris is that I am for a HST multiplier or just leaving it as HNT variable in their case. They should be easily over power any equation we come up with for hotspots and validators with HNT involved.
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Marvelous
This too. I think the current system of HNT weight per vote has flaws. I’m just not sure what the solution is. There’s been a lot of numbers and calculations thrown around in this thread, some make sense, others don’t. Like running 20-30 hotspots does not equal running one validator, I’m sorry. That’s a shit ton of Hnt in lockup to run a Val. Other ideas I like, like capping each groups voting power. Hotspots vote and count as a certain percentage, same for Val’s, routers, Hnt holders. There are many moving parts in Helium that are not just hotspots, validators, routers. Like @gtelnet was saying, big investors have interest to get their CEO buds to adopt the network. How are we to give these people a vote if not by HNT weight/lock? For 5G for example, I really hope we get a T-Mobile, AT&T or Verizon type deal. These partners will likely invest a great deal in Helium. They should get a vote. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 5:00 PM
Hotspots vote and count as a certain percentage, same for Val’s, routers, Hnt holders interesting point... 🤔 maybe just tie the vote to whatever % of rewards are allocated to the particular entity?
17:02
HSTs = "Helium Inc. & Investors" segment Hotspots & Routers split the Network Data Transfer segment 50/50 Hotspots receive PoC segment Validators receive "Consensus Group" segment
17:04
that addresses my concern about "defined point of diminishing returns" for HSTs, also removes HNT holders from the pool -- unless you want to split the "Helium Inc. & Investors" segment 50/50 between HNT holders & HSTs as well, similar to Hotspots & Routers splitting data transfer segment
17:05
...also pegs the vote weight to Helium's stated rewards split, which is essentially as close as it gets to directly endorsed / chain defined & enforced metrics, so there doesn't need to be any debate about "how much utility value does each segment contribute".
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@🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ ^^ something like this 👍 (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 5:18 PM
The HST thing honestly has been dragged in as a side effect of talking about strictly HNT holders. I would be willing to grant HSTs are a special class of HNT holder, however still maintain just holding HNT alone is not productive (nor accountable by any definitive measure as the parties mentioned above are).
17:21
I would also point out that saying holders shouldn't have a vote in governance is not the same thing as saying they don't serve a purpose at all. You can speculate for a financial return and price discovery but that should be separate and distinct from voting on governance.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Hotspots vote and count as a certain percentage, same for Val’s, routers, Hnt holders interesting point... 🤔 maybe just tie the vote to whatever % of rewards are allocated to the particular entity?
Agreed. This is exactly the point I was trying to get across. The HNT rewards system already measures everyone's contribution and that screenshot illustrates the percentages I wrote about.
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Marvelous
This
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/07/2022 7:03 PM
19:03
FWIW
19:05
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gtelnet
Agreed. This is exactly the point I was trying to get across. The HNT rewards system already measures everyone's contribution and that screenshot illustrates the percentages I wrote about.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/07/2022 9:46 PM
Unfortunately it doesn't. A miner 6 months ago was getting 10x HNT. Were they doing 10x more work? No. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Unfortunately it doesn't. A miner 6 months ago was getting 10x HNT. Were they doing 10x more work? No. 🙂
Make note that I didn't use the word "work" in that post. Work does not = contribution (which I will reword to value). In my suggestion of weighting votes on how many rewards each entity earns over the past 30 days, it wouldn't matter how much the other miner made 6 months ago.
08:00
I'll rephrase the original wording to: The HNT rewards system already measures the daily value each device brings to the network, based on their role within the network and as it relates to their pro rata allocation of rewards, based on the number of other devices who share in those rewards. The emissions screenshot illustrates the max percentages I wrote about, when referring to capping each groups voting power.
08:06
Hotspot rewards are also not meant to be a linear expression of someone's initial "work", but rather, the current value that they bring to the network on any given day, based on the state of the network that day, i.e., how many hotspots are sharing the HNT pie that day, hotspot placement, is it even powered on, etc. If your hotspot is down for 30 days, you brought zero value to the network that month. Should you still get to vote for a HIP that comes up that month? I believe no. And I believe you agree, based on what you wrote here: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/971348002595815454/971545978891018270 Using the rewards earned over the last 30 days as the weight for someone's vote, rather than a 1:1 of hotspots asserted, fixes this issue. Another example - NYC - there is no need for that many hotspots in such a small area, and the rewards system pays them accordingly. If (total guess here) 80% to 90% of hotspots in NYC went down, the network would probably continue to provide coverage in that area without skipping a beat. That means that their value to the network is very small. In a value based rewards system, the people who provide more value, earn more rewards. Since that system is already in place and working as designed, I think it’s a natural extension to use that for voting as well.
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gtelnet
Hotspot rewards are also not meant to be a linear expression of someone's initial "work", but rather, the current value that they bring to the network on any given day, based on the state of the network that day, i.e., how many hotspots are sharing the HNT pie that day, hotspot placement, is it even powered on, etc. If your hotspot is down for 30 days, you brought zero value to the network that month. Should you still get to vote for a HIP that comes up that month? I believe no. And I believe you agree, based on what you wrote here: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/971348002595815454/971545978891018270 Using the rewards earned over the last 30 days as the weight for someone's vote, rather than a 1:1 of hotspots asserted, fixes this issue. Another example - NYC - there is no need for that many hotspots in such a small area, and the rewards system pays them accordingly. If (total guess here) 80% to 90% of hotspots in NYC went down, the network would probably continue to provide coverage in that area without skipping a beat. That means that their value to the network is very small. In a value based rewards system, the people who provide more value, earn more rewards. Since that system is already in place and working as designed, I think it’s a natural extension to use that for voting as well.
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/08/2022 8:14 AM
I have no objection to the idea, just wanted to throw a couple of points in. The "value" can be skewed based on performance outside of the Hotspot setup, as has been evident over the past month. Can we adjust for that? Gamers also tip the value scale but I doubt most even vote. There may be some wolves in sheep's clothing though. Can we adjust for this?
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
I have no objection to the idea, just wanted to throw a couple of points in. The "value" can be skewed based on performance outside of the Hotspot setup, as has been evident over the past month. Can we adjust for that? Gamers also tip the value scale but I doubt most even vote. There may be some wolves in sheep's clothing though. Can we adjust for this?
I think the flaws in the reward system effects everyone pretty equally, so not sure that we'd need to manually adjust for it? There's been a bunch of posts in here about excluding known gamers from voting, but I think that basing a votes weight on rewards over the past 30 days covers that as well, as once they are known, they will stop earning rewards. They probably would only vote on anti-gaming HIPs anyway, and if it was found out that a gamer swung a vote, we could always reissue the vote, 30 or more days after that gamer was stopped.
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gtelnet
I think the flaws in the reward system effects everyone pretty equally, so not sure that we'd need to manually adjust for it? There's been a bunch of posts in here about excluding known gamers from voting, but I think that basing a votes weight on rewards over the past 30 days covers that as well, as once they are known, they will stop earning rewards. They probably would only vote on anti-gaming HIPs anyway, and if it was found out that a gamer swung a vote, we could always reissue the vote, 30 or more days after that gamer was stopped.
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/08/2022 8:29 AM
My only rebuttal is for the network impact. It's been observed that rural areas or less dense areas are more significantly impacted by the reduction of PoC events. That's what I was thinking about.
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hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦
My only rebuttal is for the network impact. It's been observed that rural areas or less dense areas are more significantly impacted by the reduction of PoC events. That's what I was thinking about.
Oh, so it's not affecting everyone equally? I wasn't aware of that, so yes, we should definitely brainstorm on how to account for that.
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gtelnet
Oh, so it's not affecting everyone equally? I wasn't aware of that, so yes, we should definitely brainstorm on how to account for that.
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/08/2022 8:31 AM
Hopefully by the time a new vote system is implemented, these issues will be a distant memory. 😉
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@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped You’ve shown that you’re a fervent believer in “Customers don’t vote” and you’ve stated “We're not here to copy the same old BS systems of past companies. We're here to build something better.”, yet you reference Ford and Verizon as your examples of why customers shouldn’t vote. If we’re not here to copy the same old BS systems of past companies, citing them as the reason not to build something better loses a little weight in the rebuttal. My question to you, is, other than 'how it's always been in the corporate world', why not give consumers a say in the direction of the network? I can think of a lot of pros, so would like to hear some of the potential cons. (edited)
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Carl-bot BOT 05/08/2022 12:22 PM
No discussions on buying or selling HNT please!
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gtelnet
I'll rephrase the original wording to: The HNT rewards system already measures the daily value each device brings to the network, based on their role within the network and as it relates to their pro rata allocation of rewards, based on the number of other devices who share in those rewards. The emissions screenshot illustrates the max percentages I wrote about, when referring to capping each groups voting power.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 12:23 PM
HNT is not a measure of daily value to the network due to 1. being able to purchase hnt, and 2. HST holders getting HNT for doing nothing that day for the network.
12:23
Dammit carl...
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gtelnet
Hotspot rewards are also not meant to be a linear expression of someone's initial "work", but rather, the current value that they bring to the network on any given day, based on the state of the network that day, i.e., how many hotspots are sharing the HNT pie that day, hotspot placement, is it even powered on, etc. If your hotspot is down for 30 days, you brought zero value to the network that month. Should you still get to vote for a HIP that comes up that month? I believe no. And I believe you agree, based on what you wrote here: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/971348002595815454/971545978891018270 Using the rewards earned over the last 30 days as the weight for someone's vote, rather than a 1:1 of hotspots asserted, fixes this issue. Another example - NYC - there is no need for that many hotspots in such a small area, and the rewards system pays them accordingly. If (total guess here) 80% to 90% of hotspots in NYC went down, the network would probably continue to provide coverage in that area without skipping a beat. That means that their value to the network is very small. In a value based rewards system, the people who provide more value, earn more rewards. Since that system is already in place and working as designed, I think it’s a natural extension to use that for voting as well.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 12:26 PM
I've said that scaling should be used, for both hotspots and validators.
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12:27
And a hotspot offline for 30 days wouldn't be a active hotspot anyway. 😉
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gtelnet
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped You’ve shown that you’re a fervent believer in “Customers don’t vote” and you’ve stated “We're not here to copy the same old BS systems of past companies. We're here to build something better.”, yet you reference Ford and Verizon as your examples of why customers shouldn’t vote. If we’re not here to copy the same old BS systems of past companies, citing them as the reason not to build something better loses a little weight in the rebuttal. My question to you, is, other than 'how it's always been in the corporate world', why not give consumers a say in the direction of the network? I can think of a lot of pros, so would like to hear some of the potential cons. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 12:31 PM
They are cited as examples, not reasons. The reason customers not get a vote is they do not run the network. They are not owners. If I built a house, and rented out a room of it, why should the renter get a say in what color I paint it? (edited)
12:32
I also think HOAs are bs. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
HNT is not a measure of daily value to the network due to 1. being able to purchase hnt, and 2. HST holders getting HNT for doing nothing that day for the network.
I did not say that how much HNT someone purchases measures the value they bring to the network. I stated that the HNT rewards system is the current measurement of how much value a device brings to the network. No one earns HNT for holding HNT, unless they stake it. What proof can you provide that HST holders did nothing to bring value to the network today?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And a hotspot offline for 30 days wouldn't be a active hotspot anyway. 😉
Should they still have a right to vote?
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gtelnet
I did not say that how much HNT someone purchases measures the value they bring to the network. I stated that the HNT rewards system is the current measurement of how much value a device brings to the network. No one earns HNT for holding HNT, unless they stake it. What proof can you provide that HST holders did nothing to bring value to the network today?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 12:39 PM
I'm saying it's not a measure of network value. And of hst holders were bringing value today, they would be running routers, validators, and/or hotspots. They would get votes based on that, not on how much hnt they hold
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They are cited as examples, not reasons. The reason customers not get a vote is they do not run the network. They are not owners. If I built a house, and rented out a room of it, why should the renter get a say in what color I paint it? (edited)
I own a second property that I rent. I always ask the tenants what color they prefer. It's just a style of business that I found works well for me. It makes them feel important which leads to them being happy, renting longer and eliminates the need for me to find a new tenant every time I rent. I do the same for my customers in business (not about paint colors though lol). It's always more profitable to retain a client than land a new one.
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gtelnet
Should they still have a right to vote?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 12:40 PM
No. I've always said that active hotspots vote, not ones just sitting on a shelf doing nothing for the network.
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gtelnet
I own a second property that I rent. I always ask the tenants what color they prefer. It's just a style of business that I found works well for me. It makes them feel important which leads to them being happy, renting longer and eliminates the need for me to find a new tenant every time I rent. I do the same for my customers in business (not about paint colors though lol). It's always more profitable to retain a client than land a new one.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 12:43 PM
Pretty sure you don't let the renters knock out walls or rewire the house though. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'm saying it's not a measure of network value. And of hst holders were bringing value today, they would be running routers, validators, and/or hotspots. They would get votes based on that, not on how much hnt they hold
"And of [sic] hst holders were bringing value today, they would be running routers, validators, and/or hotspots." That is simply one opinion of what brings value to the network. Another opinion is that there are broader intangibles that benefit the network that can't have a price assigned to each and every instance of what an HST holder is (hopefully) doing. The cost of those intangibles is what would be built into the HST holder's earnings.
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gtelnet
"And of [sic] hst holders were bringing value today, they would be running routers, validators, and/or hotspots." That is simply one opinion of what brings value to the network. Another opinion is that there are broader intangibles that benefit the network that can't have a price assigned to each and every instance of what an HST holder is (hopefully) doing. The cost of those intangibles is what would be built into the HST holder's earnings.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 12:54 PM
Intangibles dive into a very deep hole where everyone in the world votes. The bar I've mentioned before is very clear. If the group were to suddenly disappear and the network still functions, then they do not get votes. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Pretty sure you don't let the renters knock out walls or rewire the house though. 😉
I'm not sure what that analogy has to do with the price of tea in China, but if they wanted to pay for it, it increased the value of my property and they hired a contractor that I approved of, I would definitely be open to the idea. Which is the same as how it works with my landlords where my businesses rent.
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gtelnet
I'm not sure what that analogy has to do with the price of tea in China, but if they wanted to pay for it, it increased the value of my property and they hired a contractor that I approved of, I would definitely be open to the idea. Which is the same as how it works with my landlords where my businesses rent.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 1:16 PM
Most landlords don't even let you put holes in the walls to hang pictures. Sounds like you're a far more chill landlord. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Intangibles dive into a very deep hole where everyone in the world votes. The bar I've mentioned before is very clear. If the group were to suddenly disappear and the network still functions, then they do not get votes. (edited)
More specifically, everyone in the world who's earned HNT in the past 30 days through the rewards system, which was one poaiible suggestion. Whether the network functions or not without a specific entity does not necassarily mean others don't bring value and shouldn't vote. That's just another opinion.
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gtelnet
More specifically, everyone in the world who's earned HNT in the past 30 days through the rewards system, which was one poaiible suggestion. Whether the network functions or not without a specific entity does not necassarily mean others don't bring value and shouldn't vote. That's just another opinion.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 1:21 PM
Yeah, difference of opinion there. I feel of you're not a required part of the function of the network, you're not an owner.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, difference of opinion there. I feel of you're not a required part of the function of the network, you're not an owner.
And there are many other opinions, many of whom will vote on this HIP. So the task at hand is to figure out how to craft it, to get to a yes with the required number of votes. Even if the end result doesn't match each and every one of our own personal opinions.
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Limiting to HNT earned in the last 30 days limits the influence of HST owners to a maximum of 33%
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I know it's been said many times that HST is not a security and therefore they are not owners. But the acronym HST literally stands for Helium Security Token. Does it not match the text book definition of a security? Perhaps they are owners and we just don't know it?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Most landlords don't even let you put holes in the walls to hang pictures. Sounds like you're a far more chill landlord. 🙂
PS - it's just not because I'm chill, but I won't argue that point 😉 Every landlord I've ever rented from not only allows you to make modifications to the space, but they actually have all provided me with TI (tenant improvements) money as part of the lease, to help with the build out costs, even though the renter is not an owner of the building. Think of every retail shop and restaurant. Every one of them makes changes to the space before they move in. But I think that these real world analogies will never help us, since this is a the first time something like this has ever been done and can't be modeled after what's already been done. I think we need to throw away the text book (and the analogies) and build something different than anyone has thought of before, and that any of us have yet to completely figure out. There are a LOT of smart people involved in this project. Sharing ideas, listening and incorporating others' ideas, and then winning them over to vote for something you champion, is what will shape the future of this network. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'm saying it's not a measure of network value. And of hst holders were bringing value today, they would be running routers, validators, and/or hotspots. They would get votes based on that, not on how much hnt they hold
You are suggesting HST holders are doing nothing for the network, but you don't really know this. Couple weeks ago there was an announcement about Helium getting another 200mil injected into the network. Where do you think that money is coming from? Did it come from people simply running Hotspots, Validators and Routers? No. There are big money players in the Helium world that are indeed making a positive impact to the network. I would argue that those with millions invested want this project to succeed and they should have a vote. That's why I find it a narrow point of view to say, "Well.. all they are doing is investing money, so they have NO vote". For Helium to be a success we NEED these investors. Continuing to completely discredit new and old investors is not going to pass you a HIP. Is the current system of voting lopsided and in need of change? YES., but if you want something to pass I think it has to include HST/HNT holders by some form. Alienating the big money groups will just get a HIP a "no" vote on this. (edited)
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14:43
You catch more flies with a drop of honey than a bucket of vinegar.
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Marvelous
You are suggesting HST holders are doing nothing for the network, but you don't really know this. Couple weeks ago there was an announcement about Helium getting another 200mil injected into the network. Where do you think that money is coming from? Did it come from people simply running Hotspots, Validators and Routers? No. There are big money players in the Helium world that are indeed making a positive impact to the network. I would argue that those with millions invested want this project to succeed and they should have a vote. That's why I find it a narrow point of view to say, "Well.. all they are doing is investing money, so they have NO vote". For Helium to be a success we NEED these investors. Continuing to completely discredit new and old investors is not going to pass you a HIP. Is the current system of voting lopsided and in need of change? YES., but if you want something to pass I think it has to include HST/HNT holders by some form. Alienating the big money groups will just get a HIP a "no" vote on this. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 2:55 PM
Just holding HST is not ownership and it never came with voting rights. If HST holders were to suddenly disappear, the network would keep functioning.
14:56
Securities gain votes for investors. HNT is not a security.
14:57
HST holders already get everything they contracted for.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Just holding HST is not ownership and it never came with voting rights. If HST holders were to suddenly disappear, the network would keep functioning.
I do enjoy your what-if scenarios. HST holders are not going to suddenly disappear. Helium is not identical to how securities are run and should not be treated as such.
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Marvelous
I do enjoy your what-if scenarios. HST holders are not going to suddenly disappear. Helium is not identical to how securities are run and should not be treated as such.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 3:12 PM
It's not a "what-if". It's making the point that they are not needed for a functional network.
15:12
HNT was never a governance token until those with lots of HNT made it that way.
15:14
Money in voting is a major problem in current voting systems. We should not be repeating the same mistake.
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Idk man. Maybe a fair solution is to have these groups vote based on token lock or by staking a validator. From our conversations in the past I know you and others want Validators to have way less voting power than they do now, and maybe they should. It just needs to make sense.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 3:18 PM
If a "HNT weighted voting" HIP came up, it would never pass. So they just forced it anyway with no input. The rich get richer and retain power. They do not trust that the public will "vote the right way" on HIPs.
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Marvelous
Idk man. Maybe a fair solution is to have these groups vote based on token lock or by staking a validator. From our conversations in the past I know you and others want Validators to have way less voting power than they do now, and maybe they should. It just needs to make sense.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 3:18 PM
Token lock in a bad idea for various reason. Staking a validator has been a supported idea by this HIP 🙂
15:19
The weight of a validator vote is a debate, but a reasonable one. I would not expect a validator to have the same voting power as 1 hotspot 🙂
15:20
(it would have more)
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I believe a good amount of hst holders have staked validators so… there’s that. (edited)
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Marvelous
I believe a good amount of hst holders have staked validators so… there’s that. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 3:20 PM
And they would have votes based on that staking 🙂
15:21
Just not on having HST 🙂
15:21
The former benefits the network function, the latter does not. 🙂
15:23
HST holders gave the push to get the ball rolling, and they are being rewarded for that risk. But the ball is rolling downhill without them now and they are not adding anything to it. It's the network operators that keep the ball rolling, and thus they are owners and thus they get a voice in how the network runs.
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This convo is about the big Hnt wallets, which a good chunk happen to be HST holders. Im not saying having Hst gets you a special vote.
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Marvelous
This convo is about the big Hnt wallets, which a good chunk happen to be HST holders. Im not saying having Hst gets you a special vote.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 3:25 PM
Since HST gets you lots of HNT, it ends up amounting to the same thing
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Could there be good reason for these groups to hold onto large amounts of HNt and not stake? I’m not sure what the reasons would be, it just doesn’t seem right to say people who are holding tons of HNt have no say. That’s why I like the idea of token lock. Forgive me that I don’t know why it’s a bad idea.
15:33
Or even the regular joe who started mining early and has and holding 5k Hnt. Not enough for a full Val, but he only has two hotspots. In this case one hotspot one vote I don’t agree with either. That’s a lot of HNt just sitting there. (edited)
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Marvelous
Could there be good reason for these groups to hold onto large amounts of HNt and not stake? I’m not sure what the reasons would be, it just doesn’t seem right to say people who are holding tons of HNt have no say. That’s why I like the idea of token lock. Forgive me that I don’t know why it’s a bad idea.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 3:34 PM
One example is liquidity. People use HNT for expanding the network. Forcing them to choose between locking to vote, or using the HNT to build out the network is a very bad idea. The most involved people get the least amount of voice in the direction of the network.
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Marvelous
Or even the regular joe who started mining early and has and holding 5k Hnt. Not enough for a full Val, but he only has two hotspots. In this case one hotspot one vote I don’t agree with either. That’s a lot of HNt just sitting there. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 3:35 PM
The should stake the HNT then.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The should stake the HNT then.
With 5k Hnt it would be a custodial pool. Would this person get to vote with their 5k? There’s things I don’t know 🤷‍♀️
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Marvelous
With 5k Hnt it would be a custodial pool. Would this person get to vote with their 5k? There’s things I don’t know 🤷‍♀️
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 3:38 PM
That would be up to the staking company. Last I heard (for HIP39) some staking companies were asking their stakers which way to vote.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
One example is liquidity. People use HNT for expanding the network. Forcing them to choose between locking to vote, or using the HNT to build out the network is a very bad idea. The most involved people get the least amount of voice in the direction of the network.
This is a general assumption. You don’t know that the most involved people are liquidating their Hnt to continue to grow it, and I’m sorry for those that do this. No one is forcing you to sell now instead of holding onto a coin you believe is going to continue to grow.
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Marvelous
This is a general assumption. You don’t know that the most involved people are liquidating their Hnt to continue to grow it, and I’m sorry for those that do this. No one is forcing you to sell now instead of holding onto a coin you believe is going to continue to grow.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 3:40 PM
It's not an assumption. I have spoken with a fair number of people that run install companies. The revenues from installed miners very much is fed back into installing more miners.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That would be up to the staking company. Last I heard (for HIP39) some staking companies were asking their stakers which way to vote.
I know in a noncustodial Val you just vote one way or the other with the 10k wallet. (edited)
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15:42
I don’t think it can be separated to have say half the stake vote one way and the other half vote another. Anyway, I remember Heliumrising said something about this but I don’t know the details.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not an assumption. I have spoken with a fair number of people that run install companies. The revenues from installed miners very much is fed back into installing more miners.
That’s too bad they sold off their Hnt. 🤷‍♀️ maybe whoever you are speaking of could have kept their operation small and have more to play with now. This is just a money issue. There’s plenty hotspot profit sharing companies that held onto a majority of what they made. (edited)
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Marvelous
I don’t think it can be separated to have say half the stake vote one way and the other half vote another. Anyway, I remember Heliumrising said something about this but I don’t know the details.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 4:04 PM
Yeah, it would be a "winner take all" system.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If a "HNT weighted voting" HIP came up, it would never pass. So they just forced it anyway with no input. The rich get richer and retain power. They do not trust that the public will "vote the right way" on HIPs.
I’d say that if you want to get a HIP to pass, alienating the group that you need to convince is not a good tactic. If we wanted to have a “rich get richer” governance system we would have designed it that way from the start. But we didn’t, and the process although flawed is fairly reasonable and open. We could easily have designed it not to be so
18:41
There’s a real lack of understanding the value of HNT holders in this entire conversation, it’s entirely bizarre. The notion that they add no value is frankly ridiculous. Nothing will ever pass unless all the network constituents are given credit for the value they add, whether you personally value it or not
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Just holding HST is not ownership and it never came with voting rights. If HST holders were to suddenly disappear, the network would keep functioning.
How do we know this to be fact? I'll ask again. The acronym HST literally stands for Helium Security Token. Does it not match the text book definition of a security? Perhaps they are owners and we just don't know it?
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gtelnet
How do we know this to be fact? I'll ask again. The acronym HST literally stands for Helium Security Token. Does it not match the text book definition of a security? Perhaps they are owners and we just don't know it?
We’re not. It’s basically a deferred premine
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18:59
We thought the community would think of it positively, because it’s like a forced holding mechanism. But instead it’s contentious. We should have just premined like everyone else 😅
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capcom
We thought the community would think of it positively, because it’s like a forced holding mechanism. But instead it’s contentious. We should have just premined like everyone else 😅
Jealousy will always exist. It's not a point of contention with everyone in the community.
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It’s jealously brought about by ignorance facilitated by popular media. The lack of understanding around capital markets proves by itself the inappropriateness of this HIP
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HNT holders are the entire reason helium worked where every other attempt at building a community owned wireless network failed. And there have been many, many attempts
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capcom
I’d say that if you want to get a HIP to pass, alienating the group that you need to convince is not a good tactic. If we wanted to have a “rich get richer” governance system we would have designed it that way from the start. But we didn’t, and the process although flawed is fairly reasonable and open. We could easily have designed it not to be so
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:11 PM
The need to convince them only is due to HNT suddenly being made into a governance token without community approval.
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As I’ve said, lots of stuff suddenly got made. That’s the nature of inventing things. Unless you’re part of the invention you have to either adopt or leave
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capcom
As I’ve said, lots of stuff suddenly got made. That’s the nature of inventing things. Unless you’re part of the invention you have to either adopt or leave
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:12 PM
Can't be part of the invention when you weren't allowed to be included.
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Right. It’s not supposed to be fair. We spent years building a thing the way we wanted to build it. You can always fork, that’s why we made it all open
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:16 PM
It’s not supposed to be fair.
Well, there we are. I'm glad we can dispense with the illusion of a democratic system. Business as usual.
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19:17
I'm not mad. Just disappointed.
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The process of invention, that is, but you could apply it more broadly if you want. In any case you aren’t going to get anywhere trying to paint the entire process as sinister and with ulterior motive. We could have designed it to be much more closed if that was the intent (edited)
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capcom
The process of invention, that is, but you could apply it more broadly if you want. In any case you aren’t going to get anywhere trying to paint the entire process as sinister and with ulterior motive. We could have designed it to be much more closed if that was the intent (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:21 PM
Whether by malice or otherwise, the result is the same. The "haves" retain control and the rest are forced to "adapt or leave".
19:23
The fact that the problems of involving money in governance is not being seen here speaks to a disconnect that I can do nothing to remedy. 🤷‍♂️
19:23
It's disheartening
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I mean it requires an insane amount of entitlement to imagine that those who invest the most resources into an endeavor shouldn’t have the most input into the direction of the system. Whether by buying HNT and contributing to the ecosystem value (why else do you think there are 1M nodes soon), or by optimizing mining setups, or by validating, etc
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:29 PM
Holding HNT doesn't make the network function.
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You are entirely mistaken
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:30 PM
Between validators and hotspots alone, that's $1.1 billion conservatively. But we don't care about their voices.
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Sure it does
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Between validators and hotspots alone, that's $1.1 billion conservatively. But we don't care about their voices.
Where do you think that value comes from?
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capcom
You are entirely mistaken
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:31 PM
A data packet will travel just as well with or without someone speculating in HNT (edited)
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capcom
Where do you think that value comes from?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:31 PM
The dollars spent
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But you won’t build a network without HNT buyers. That’s the entire chicken egg problem that every single attempt at this idea has faced for 20 years
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Without hnt. There is no network.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The dollars spent
Surely you’re aware that this is all speculative capital
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capcom
But you won’t build a network without HNT buyers. That’s the entire chicken egg problem that every single attempt at this idea has faced for 20 years
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:32 PM
I get that. But if you start factoring in even little knock-on effect, you end up with the whole world with voting rights.
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You could build a version of helium that was purely usage only. But it would grow slowly. Very slowly. And you never solve any of the core problems that helium solves. It’s literally the point of doing it this way
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capcom
Surely you’re aware that this is all speculative capital
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:33 PM
A hotspot has X dollar value. HNT was not tin the equation.
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I can’t tell if you really believe this line of reasoning or you’re so desperate to invent a crypto governance system that doesn’t involve money
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Keenan
Without hnt. There is no network.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:34 PM
And with out Farmers there is no food, and without food there is no people, and without people there is no one to install miners. So Farmers have votes on HIPs? Where does it end?
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If the farmer buys hnt, yes
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gtelnet
If the farmer buys hnt, yes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:35 PM
That wasn't part of the question...
19:35
No strawmen please
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You don’t have to go that many layers deep. People buy hotspots to earn HNT. HNT has value because people buy it. If people didn’t buy it HNT wouldn’t have value and people wouldn’t buy hotspots, and you wouldn’t have a 1M node network. It’s truly that simple
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19:36
You could definitely have a version of a network. But it wouldn’t grow at this rate. So pretending HNT buyers aren’t critical is either naive or dumb, but wrong in either case
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capcom
You don’t have to go that many layers deep. People buy hotspots to earn HNT. HNT has value because people buy it. If people didn’t buy it HNT wouldn’t have value and people wouldn’t buy hotspots, and you wouldn’t have a 1M node network. It’s truly that simple
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:36 PM
I don't have voting rights for being paid at work. Why should a HNT be given voting rights? That's just buying votes.
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Because HNT is how contribution and value is measured in this network
19:37
You don’t have to like it
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:37 PM
Why should a miner that worked for the network for 1 month, 6 months ago, have 10x the say of a miner that worked for 1 month right now?
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Because they took 10x the risk
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capcom
Because they took 10x the risk
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:38 PM
No they didn't. They put in the same effort. And 6 months ago was no extra risk.
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I disagree. Time has value
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:38 PM
So I get extra votes in the next election because I'm older than the next guy? (edited)
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This isn’t an election. It’s a crypto economic system
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:39 PM
It's voting
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It’s economics. Don’t get it conflated. We measure value in these networks with economic value. No reason to pretend otherwise
19:40
It’s why every single defi peotocol has token weighted voting, etc
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capcom
This isn’t an election. It’s a crypto economic system
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:40 PM
what would you say your view is on the role of governance?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:40 PM
We're conflating payment for work with skin in the game.
19:40
They are not the same
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I again disagree
19:42
But I’m not going to convince you and you’re not going to convince me. The problem is that to make a change you have to convince a constituent of people you’re intent on degrading. I’m merely suggesting a change of tact. But the rest is up to you
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capcom
You don’t have to like it
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:42 PM
we don't. that's why we're discussing a HIP about it.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:42 PM
A miner right now has to install 10 miners just to have equal voting power to a person at had 1 miner 6 month ago. How is that fair? The current person has 10x the ownership of the network, but the same voting power.
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It’s not supposed to be fair
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:42 PM
what's it "supposed" to be?
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It’s about risk and time
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:43 PM
and who gets to decide that?
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We did, when we designed the system
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:43 PM
bro do you want to be open source or not
19:43
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I don’t think you understand what open source means. Try making a change to the Linux kernel the way you are here and let me know how it works out for you
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capcom
I don’t think you understand what open source means. Try making a change to the Linux kernel the way you are here and let me know how it works out for you
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:44 PM
I definitely know what it means, it seems more like yourself that might like "the marketing slogan" version of it, but doesn't seem much in practice as far as what you're saying here...
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capcom
But I’m not going to convince you and you’re not going to convince me. The problem is that to make a change you have to convince a constituent of people you’re intent on degrading. I’m merely suggesting a change of tact. But the rest is up to you
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:44 PM
Those people wouldn't have to be convinced if the power wasn't suddenly handed to them in the first place. Funny how the people with the power to make the change gave themselves the power to maintain the power.
19:44
You really don't see the conflict of interest?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You really don't see the conflict of interest?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:44 PM
he literally admitted in this same channel to conflict of interest
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I’ve never denied it. Of course there’s a conflict of interest. But you’re not going anywhere with the approach you’re taking
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Nearly all large HNT holders are also large validator owners, I know I am. So we aren’t even “hurt” by this proposal. It’s just silly to ignore HNT holders, continues to be my only dog in this fight
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capcom
I’ve never denied it. Of course there’s a conflict of interest. But you’re not going anywhere with the approach you’re taking
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:45 PM
So what would you suggest? We have to convince the people that stole the power to give it back? lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So what would you suggest? We have to convince the people that stole the power to give it back? lol
Well using rhetoric like stole is definitely going to work well
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:46 PM
facepalm 1
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capcom
Well using rhetoric like stole is definitely going to work well
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:47 PM
Took by fiat? Is that better?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:47 PM
some people (a lot of people) in the community don't take #ThePeoplesNetwork to be a slogan
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Open source doesn’t mea equal decision making power. You can’t change bitcoin-core or the Linux kernel because you want to. Not sure why you don’t understand this
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:47 PM
but it seems like private interest is a higher priority here 🤷‍♂️
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It’s why forking exists
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capcom
It’s why forking exists
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:48 PM
Can we stop with the "forking" suggestion please? We know that's not viable.
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No, we can’t. It’s absolutely viable and the correct thing to do if you disagree deeply with the status quo. There are many successful crypto networks built off forks
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:49 PM
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19:49
"BYON"
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capcom
No, we can’t. It’s absolutely viable and the correct thing to do if you disagree deeply with the status quo. There are many successful crypto networks built off forks
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:50 PM
The network fork doesn't work without the hardware
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capcom
No, we can’t. It’s absolutely viable and the correct thing to do if you disagree deeply with the status quo. There are many successful crypto networks built off forks
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:50 PM
as @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped already said above, it's more just the disappointment that someone in your position feels the way you claim to feel about the nature of the "fairness", being in web 3 and all
19:50
where's shawn at
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Anyone pretending crypto networks are fair is lying. They’re economic systems, and economic systems require capital
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capcom
Anyone pretending crypto networks are fair is lying. They’re economic systems, and economic systems require capital
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 7:51 PM
we're not pretending they are. We're trying to make them so
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Fwiw I do enjoy the debate and the fact that you took the time to write the HIP @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
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Fair doesn’t work
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capcom
Anyone pretending crypto networks are fair is lying. They’re economic systems, and economic systems require capital
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:52 PM
So the normal walled garden were the normal folk have no say and no chance. Our votes don't matter because they can be overridden the minute we vote for something that isn't the "right" way.
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I obviously disagree with the current writing but I can still appreciate the intent. I wrote one of the first on-chain voting HIPs, 4 I think
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:53 PM
What would have happened if HIP55 wasn't counted via HNT weighted votes? It wouldn't have passed. Then what?
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I would imagine the network would eventually burn to the ground without 55
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gtelnet
I would imagine the network would eventually burn to the ground without 55
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:55 PM
You really think the people in power would have allowed that?
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Or everyone would need to buy $2000 hotspots to keep up with the chain
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:56 PM
Not a chance. They would have ignored the vote and done it anyway. "It was in the whitepaper"
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You really think the people in power would have allowed that?
Obviously not. Maybe just make a new hip with slight changes until it passed?
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gtelnet
Obviously not. Maybe just make a new hip with slight changes until it passed?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:56 PM
The core features would have been the same.
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Or what you wrote. Which is a perfect example of why just owning a hotspot doesn't mean someone should have an equal vote.
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gtelnet
Or what you wrote. Which is a perfect example of why just owning a hotspot doesn't mean someone should have an equal vote.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:58 PM
The votes weren't about hotspots. They were just wallets.
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I meant that if voting was 1:1 hotspots
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gtelnet
I meant that if voting was 1:1 hotspots
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:58 PM
We don't know what the results would be if it was based on only hotspots.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not a chance. They would have ignored the vote and done it anyway. "It was in the whitepaper"
“I don’t know why no one agrees with me”
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capcom
“I don’t know why no one agrees with me”
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 7:59 PM
Well what's your answer then? What would have happened if HIP55 didn't pass?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Well what's your answer then? What would have happened if HIP55 didn't pass?
Answer to what? The hypothetical situation you invented in your head? I don’t have one
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capcom
Answer to what? The hypothetical situation you invented in your head? I don’t have one
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:01 PM
The very real result if HNT weight was not taken into account.
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The answer would be that the chain would grind to a halt, and I’m guessing people would have quickly voted for the newly prepared HIP56
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20:03
Although if the chain was stopped, voting would be a challenge 🤔
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capcom
The answer would be that the chain would grind to a halt, and I’m guessing people would have quickly voted for the newly prepared HIP56
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:03 PM
So if you think the people will vote in the best interest of the network, then why not give them the ability to do so?
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capcom
Although if the chain was stopped, voting would be a challenge 🤔
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:03 PM
Heh true 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So if you think the people will vote in the best interest of the network, then why not give them the ability to do so?
What part of the chain grinding to a halt is in anyones best interest?
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capcom
What part of the chain grinding to a halt is in anyones best interest?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:04 PM
Didn't say it was?
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Well, maybe some peoples
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20:04
Anyway I need a drink
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capcom
Anyway I need a drink
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:06 PM
Hope some day to get to chat with you in person. I feel so much is lost in translation in text only. 🙂
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Would happily jump on a voice chat most of the time
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capcom
Although if the chain was stopped, voting would be a challenge 🤔
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/08/2022 8:06 PM
straw polls obviously Troll
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Also I’ll be in palm beach for the conference thing on the 18th
20:07
And consensus in Austin on the June 9th or something
20:07
I was told to go to these things so off I go
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capcom
Also I’ll be in palm beach for the conference thing on the 18th
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:08 PM
Oh... first I've heard of this. (palm beach, FL?)
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Yea, the conference is called Permissionless
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20:08
I’m on a panel with the Hivemapper and Multicoin guys. Speaking of conflicts of interest
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capcom
I’m on a panel with the Hivemapper and Multicoin guys. Speaking of conflicts of interest
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:09 PM
I'll have to see if I can watch remote 🙂
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I can tell you that flights to PBI suck
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capcom
I can tell you that flights to PBI suck
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:10 PM
I'm not a fan of the humidity there. Used to live in GA way back. That was bad enough. lol
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Pass
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:12 PM
I was thinking about the Austin event, but I think my GF would kill me for taking a vaca without her after all this covid lockdown. 😅
20:13
Hopefully soon we'll have a Helium event in the bay area.
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Im told its a possibility
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:20 PM
Holy.. $1100 GA tickets for Consensus?? 🤑
20:20
And that's the discount price
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Not sure. There’s a helium house outside of the actual event that is $0
20:21
I’m assuming someone gives me a pass if I’m speaking
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capcom
I’m assuming someone gives me a pass if I’m speaking
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:21 PM
I would certainly hope so. lol (edited)
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Oh it’s happened
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:22 PM
The "VIP" pass is $9k. lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The "VIP" pass is $9k. lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:23 PM
I'd rather spend that on installs. lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/08/2022 8:33 PM
member of the original team behind Battlefield 1942 at DICE in Stockholm, Sweden.
@capcom Were you still there for BF2?
20:35
Ah, NM. Says only until 2003 and BF2 was released 2005. Would have been funny if we had crossed paths back then. 🙂
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Negative
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the house is free, yes.
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21:36
and does not require access to the actual consensus event
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Max - Just Max 05/08/2022 9:37 PM
Im sorry but are we actually debating who knows how to best guide the network, the Helium/Nova team or the guy who bought 20 bobcats after he saw a TikTok?
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hashc0de
and does not require access to the actual consensus event
Max - Just Max 05/08/2022 9:38 PM
What’s the status on the potential Friday night dinner?
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there could be a dinner but i'm maybe not cool enough to attend
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Max - Just Max 05/08/2022 9:41 PM
If you’re not cool enough, I definitely won’t be invited
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i'm also fairly clueless about the events. i know about a welcome party
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Max - Just Max 05/08/2022 10:13 PM
Oh now it’s to be announced. It used to be a potential welcome party.
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Max - Just Max
Im sorry but are we actually debating who knows how to best guide the network, the Helium/Nova team or the guy who bought 20 bobcats after he saw a TikTok?
The guy who bought 20 Bobcats obviously. Also, owning 20 bobcats should get you about half the voting power as running a Validator, because hotspot owners are the real majority here making the network run. Holding thousands, tens of thousands or a million HNT gets you no vote because tHis is dOiNg nothing to actually make the network function 🥸 (edited)
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Typing a stream of thought here... What about a truly decentralized entity weighted voting mechanism? We agree ahead of the vote of all the entities and the metric used to represent that entity. M = hotspots (number of hotspots assigned to your wallet) V = validators ( number of validators staked (delegated staking needs to be in place OR the validator pools need to be able to assign distribution of votes on our behalf for now)) R = routers (I don't know the metric as multiple owners for a single router seems highly likely) H = HNT-holders (quantity of HNT in your wallet (either snapshot or averaged over the last n-days to avoid flash loans having undue voting power)) So when you go to vote, you know the weighting for each of the entities to which you belong. I would have for instance; a = 41 hotspots b = 0.2116 validators c = 0 routers d = 76 HNT Your vote consists of two parts; your entity value proposition and your vote on the issue. You would indicate your perception of the value contributed by each entity and your vote on the issue. I would distribute my 100% contribution as follows; 33% for hotspots, 27% for validators, 10% for routers, 30% for HNT holders. I would then vote "yes" for HIP60. At the end of voting, the average value perception for each entity is calculated across all voters. A wallet's voting power would then be calculated using the formula of WVP = ( a * average_of_M ) + ( b * average_of_V ) + ( c * average_of_R ) + ( d * average_of_H ) Completely in the spirit of decentralization; everyone that contributes to the voting gets a say in how the vote is weighted and all the value that you have contributed to the network contributes to your voting power.
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02:11
. I could see the entity weightings being parameters of your account which you could maintain via your Helium app so as wouldn't need to be part of the actual voting process but would be called upon during the voting power calculation. (edited)
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I would need more time to figure out how to utilize its value in the voting power equation, but I can certainly seeing how the standard deviation, skewness, and kurtosis of the entity value propositions would help avoid scamming the vote by generating wallets and distributing your wealth (for whichever entity to which you are rich) across said generated wallets. (edited)
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KeithR
Typing a stream of thought here... What about a truly decentralized entity weighted voting mechanism? We agree ahead of the vote of all the entities and the metric used to represent that entity. M = hotspots (number of hotspots assigned to your wallet) V = validators ( number of validators staked (delegated staking needs to be in place OR the validator pools need to be able to assign distribution of votes on our behalf for now)) R = routers (I don't know the metric as multiple owners for a single router seems highly likely) H = HNT-holders (quantity of HNT in your wallet (either snapshot or averaged over the last n-days to avoid flash loans having undue voting power)) So when you go to vote, you know the weighting for each of the entities to which you belong. I would have for instance; a = 41 hotspots b = 0.2116 validators c = 0 routers d = 76 HNT Your vote consists of two parts; your entity value proposition and your vote on the issue. You would indicate your perception of the value contributed by each entity and your vote on the issue. I would distribute my 100% contribution as follows; 33% for hotspots, 27% for validators, 10% for routers, 30% for HNT holders. I would then vote "yes" for HIP60. At the end of voting, the average value perception for each entity is calculated across all voters. A wallet's voting power would then be calculated using the formula of WVP = ( a * average_of_M ) + ( b * average_of_V ) + ( c * average_of_R ) + ( d * average_of_H ) Completely in the spirit of decentralization; everyone that contributes to the voting gets a say in how the vote is weighted and all the value that you have contributed to the network contributes to your voting power.
Some really good ideas here. (edited)
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My thinking is that you, capcom, elontusk, and I will never agree on the final value proposition of each entity but the royal "we", that is, the group as whole already has the answer. And at the moment, I can't come up with a better manifestation of decentralization; the royal "we". (edited)
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KeithR
My thinking is that you, capcom, elontusk, and I will never agree on the final value proposition of each entity but the royal "we", that is, the group as whole already has the answer. And at the moment, I can't come up with a better manifestation of decentralization; the royal "we". (edited)
I thought of something pretty similar to this but maybe just simpler? We first need to decide on how a hotspot compares to another hotspot and validator to validator. You mentioned a version of this above. When it comes to the vote, you vote based on the group(s) you represent. Either yes or no. At the end the groups tally the group vote. The result is the answer from the group (ie hotspot = yes, etc) If the majority of groups as a whole agree than the HIP passes/fails. Everyone understands what kind of voting power they hold and when it comes to voting they simply need to click (yes to all, no to all, or individual yes/no on groups).. I think if we can get the UI locked down and achieve the end result you proposed or I did it'd be the next best thing. I'm not opposed to HNT holders have a say, but I do think a stake period makes sense to protect against flash loan use (edited)
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Anthonyra
I thought of something pretty similar to this but maybe just simpler? We first need to decide on how a hotspot compares to another hotspot and validator to validator. You mentioned a version of this above. When it comes to the vote, you vote based on the group(s) you represent. Either yes or no. At the end the groups tally the group vote. The result is the answer from the group (ie hotspot = yes, etc) If the majority of groups as a whole agree than the HIP passes/fails. Everyone understands what kind of voting power they hold and when it comes to voting they simply need to click (yes to all, no to all, or individual yes/no on groups).. I think if we can get the UI locked down and achieve the end result you proposed or I did it'd be the next best thing. I'm not opposed to HNT holders have a say, but I do think a stake period makes sense to protect against flash loan use (edited)
Winner takes it all?
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I guess kind of? Just we don't need to worry about how a validator stacks up to a hotspot. What we need to know is what the validator group thinks about the HIP.
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I don't think the set is perfectly disjoint like that.
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What do you mean?
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A validator isn't necessarily just a validator, he likely also owns hotspots.
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Ah, well I'm saying as an individual they can vote in multiple groups. Just, the group result is used for the final tally. You could vote yes a validator but if the group votes no that's what's used to cast for the HIP (edited)
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In my opinion any proposal should strive for direct democracy, whatever the metric is that may be used.
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How is mine not? Or are you just stating in general (edited)
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Sorry, yes just a general statement.
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I agree, I'm also a proponent to include everyone as much as possible. But have it where no one group can out power another(s)
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Would they even need to vote multiple times across the different groups they represent? I can't imagine someone saying, "I'm going to vote yes with my validators but no with my hotspots" (edited)
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With every group (entity) we need to think about how we or someone else could game it. Make sure to guard against it or have measures in place to make it more work then the reward
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gtelnet
Would they even need to vote multiple times across the different groups they represent? I can't imagine someone saying, "I'm going to vote yes with my validators but no with my hotspots" (edited)
I'm picturing a screen where you can cast your multiple (multiple as in the groups you represent) votes at once. It can be a combo of any kind of yes or nos. (edited)
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Is using the account balance weighted over the last (x) days including some days before the vote opened not an way to defeat flash loans?
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Anthonyra
I'm picturing a screen where you can cast your multiple (multiple as in the groups you represent) votes at once. It can be a combo of any kind of yes or nos. (edited)
Understood, just not sure if necessary, as I can't imagine any individual casting their votes in two different directions.
06:47
The individual person either wants to vote yes or no so wouldn't they always want to cast all their weight in the same direction?
06:48
And just pointing out that one thing in what you wrote; i agree with the rest
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gtelnet
Understood, just not sure if necessary, as I can't imagine any individual casting their votes in two different directions.
That's where a vote yes to all comes in or vote no to all. But it'd give the most flexibility. And data on a HIP that doesn't pass. I'd imagine most people will vote yes if it benefits them overall but I can't foresee what future HIPs will be.
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gtelnet
The individual person either wants to vote yes or no so wouldn't they always want to cast all their weight in the same direction?
Assuming the wallet has a single owner.
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groot
Is using the account balance weighted over the last (x) days including some days before the vote opened not an way to defeat flash loans?
I think it'd need to be some time after the vote. Because you'd borrow the flash loan for X amount of time.. So if you voted at the very last block of the vote and that's when the power is tally'd you can return the loan the very next block after the vote.
06:51
Oh, I just re-read what you said. But maybe, the better option is what was in the wallet prior to the vote (edited)
06:52
Only issue there, is that you can see when a vote PR is inbound or not via github
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Someone with inside information of when a vote would be put up would still have the information to get a flash loan.
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You could do, the lowest balance of the wallet a month before the ending vote block.
06:54
But people would then feel "forced" to keep HNT in a specific location and how dare you suggest such an idea /s
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groot
Assuming the wallet has a single owner.
Sure, but if you and I share a wallet, and we put both hotspots and validators in the same wallet (which most people keep separate anyhow), which one of us gets to use the weight of the validators and which the weight of the hotspots? If owners of a shared wallet don't agree on something, that's probably something better for them to figure out amongst themselves, not the voting system. If the weight of each were the same, we would just cancel out each other's votes. Just thinking it would be better to keep the code/options as simple as possible with a yes/no vote. (edited)
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deasydoesit
Something like this would be interesting as it weights voting power based on value creation for the network on a near-term period of assessment, but it does bring up the question as to what is the ultimate purpose that the HIP is trying achieve. Namely, are we trying to create a voting system that differentiates between network participants based on "value creation," "value possessed" or simply "participation"? In the pure network "participation" type voting scheme (e.g., hotspot owners, validator owners, HST holders), we're simply voting on participation types. It doesn't matter if your participation adds significant value to the network, we're all being considered equal for merely participating in the network. In the "value creation" voting scheme, voting power would seem to be most heavily bestowed to those who are entrenched network participants who have the best hotspot locations, most hotspots, most HNT staked to validators, etc. Currently, voting is performed based on the "value possessed" voting scheme, but maybe it could be altered to include a token lock as some have suggested. All approaches have their respective merits, but determination on which is best is only achievable by understanding what the goal is we're trying to achieve. I'm of the opinion that said goal it's to minimize network inequalities, which makes the "participation" type voting scheme favorable, but rational minds can understand the goal differently. (edited)
I think picking which of these that deasy wrote about (or using them all with different weights) is really a good first step, then trying to craft the process around it. If we continue to use the "value possessed" option that we have now, there's lots of possible ways to game the system. Maybe as simple as casting my vote, xfering my HNT to another wallet, voting again, and so on. Code can be written to work around this in many ways, but it adds complexity. Using the emissions schedule on HNT earned over the past 30 days seems the most straightforward to me, since it already exists, it already works, it's easily reported on, and any time it's found to be gamed, the devs work on a fix, which would automatically fix voting as well, rather than needing to fix two separate sections of code. (edited)
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KeithR
Typing a stream of thought here... What about a truly decentralized entity weighted voting mechanism? We agree ahead of the vote of all the entities and the metric used to represent that entity. M = hotspots (number of hotspots assigned to your wallet) V = validators ( number of validators staked (delegated staking needs to be in place OR the validator pools need to be able to assign distribution of votes on our behalf for now)) R = routers (I don't know the metric as multiple owners for a single router seems highly likely) H = HNT-holders (quantity of HNT in your wallet (either snapshot or averaged over the last n-days to avoid flash loans having undue voting power)) So when you go to vote, you know the weighting for each of the entities to which you belong. I would have for instance; a = 41 hotspots b = 0.2116 validators c = 0 routers d = 76 HNT Your vote consists of two parts; your entity value proposition and your vote on the issue. You would indicate your perception of the value contributed by each entity and your vote on the issue. I would distribute my 100% contribution as follows; 33% for hotspots, 27% for validators, 10% for routers, 30% for HNT holders. I would then vote "yes" for HIP60. At the end of voting, the average value perception for each entity is calculated across all voters. A wallet's voting power would then be calculated using the formula of WVP = ( a * average_of_M ) + ( b * average_of_V ) + ( c * average_of_R ) + ( d * average_of_H ) Completely in the spirit of decentralization; everyone that contributes to the voting gets a say in how the vote is weighted and all the value that you have contributed to the network contributes to your voting power.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 8:21 AM
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That is a weighting that is fixed to some externality rather than the will of the people. The idea of allowing the value proposition being set by each voting event allows for the group as a whole to decide that, for instance, validators have no say in the specific vote and that hotspots have 100% of the vote in the next voting event.
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Anthonyra
I thought of something pretty similar to this but maybe just simpler? We first need to decide on how a hotspot compares to another hotspot and validator to validator. You mentioned a version of this above. When it comes to the vote, you vote based on the group(s) you represent. Either yes or no. At the end the groups tally the group vote. The result is the answer from the group (ie hotspot = yes, etc) If the majority of groups as a whole agree than the HIP passes/fails. Everyone understands what kind of voting power they hold and when it comes to voting they simply need to click (yes to all, no to all, or individual yes/no on groups).. I think if we can get the UI locked down and achieve the end result you proposed or I did it'd be the next best thing. I'm not opposed to HNT holders have a say, but I do think a stake period makes sense to protect against flash loan use (edited)
Comparing hotspot votes to other hotspot votes only, depends upon the need to agree on the voting power of each group ahead of time. My proposal is to allow the group power to be decided at the time of each voting event.
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gtelnet
Understood, just not sure if necessary, as I can't imagine any individual casting their votes in two different directions.
I agree; I dont see a scenario where I vote differently but to allow such an approach with my proposal is merely a user interface decision.
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KeithR
Comparing hotspot votes to other hotspot votes only, depends upon the need to agree on the voting power of each group ahead of time. My proposal is to allow the group power to be decided at the time of each voting event.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 8:42 AM
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Same problem; the vote power between the entities in your post is equal. I don't think the group as a whole (group = all voters) agrees. Having everybody maintain their preference for entity vote power individually and summarizing that preference each time allows the will of the people to be exactly construed at each voting event.
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The intelligentsia of this project has been arguing about how best to represent the will of the people for awhile now. Round and round they have gone; no answer to be revealed as of yet. I am proposing that is because there is no conceivable fixed answer; it has to be inclusive of all the entities and a weighting that the group as a whole decides each and every time. The will of the people for the people's network.
09:22
And if ElonTusk is correct that no one in the group wants HNT-holders to have power in a decision, they will indicate as such at the time of the vote. Now, I think it is better if the entity weighting is maintained all the time by the user within the Helium app. That means we would know where the group as a whole stands all the time as well. We would be able to see how fluid those preferences are over time. Or if a particular vote creates a scenario where everyone agrees that validators don't have a say and they change their entity weights for that specific vote. (edited)
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KeithR
Typing a stream of thought here... What about a truly decentralized entity weighted voting mechanism? We agree ahead of the vote of all the entities and the metric used to represent that entity. M = hotspots (number of hotspots assigned to your wallet) V = validators ( number of validators staked (delegated staking needs to be in place OR the validator pools need to be able to assign distribution of votes on our behalf for now)) R = routers (I don't know the metric as multiple owners for a single router seems highly likely) H = HNT-holders (quantity of HNT in your wallet (either snapshot or averaged over the last n-days to avoid flash loans having undue voting power)) So when you go to vote, you know the weighting for each of the entities to which you belong. I would have for instance; a = 41 hotspots b = 0.2116 validators c = 0 routers d = 76 HNT Your vote consists of two parts; your entity value proposition and your vote on the issue. You would indicate your perception of the value contributed by each entity and your vote on the issue. I would distribute my 100% contribution as follows; 33% for hotspots, 27% for validators, 10% for routers, 30% for HNT holders. I would then vote "yes" for HIP60. At the end of voting, the average value perception for each entity is calculated across all voters. A wallet's voting power would then be calculated using the formula of WVP = ( a * average_of_M ) + ( b * average_of_V ) + ( c * average_of_R ) + ( d * average_of_H ) Completely in the spirit of decentralization; everyone that contributes to the voting gets a say in how the vote is weighted and all the value that you have contributed to the network contributes to your voting power.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 9:27 AM
Well thought out and presented. It's an interesting compromise I could get behind.
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My proposal does not preclude using token-lock either. Simple user interface decision to include or not.
09:32
Allows for many entities to start as well. For instance we might let those with the People'sAntenna to be an entity. The policy could be that if an entity fails to garner n% of weighting on average over x number of voting events they are removed from the entity list.
09:33
In this same regard, it allows for 5G hotspot owners and LoRaWAN hotspot owners to be separate entities if the group so wills it. Or if the will of the people is that they are homogenous and therefore to be considered a single entity so be it.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/09/2022 9:36 AM
I believe if everyone is "honest" we could easily assign a weight to each entity
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
I believe if everyone is "honest" we could easily assign a weight to each entity
But that honesty and thy will is fluid. It is fluid over time and it is fluid as it applies to a specific voting event (HIP in our parlance).
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/09/2022 9:37 AM
@KeithR a floating value doesn't seem like a bad idea either
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KeithR
But that honesty and thy will is fluid. It is fluid over time and it is fluid as it applies to a specific voting event (HIP in our parlance).
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/09/2022 9:37 AM
agreed
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KeithR
But that honesty and thy will is fluid. It is fluid over time and it is fluid as it applies to a specific voting event (HIP in our parlance).
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/09/2022 9:38 AM
just so i know i'm understanding you properly. I.E. Validators would have had more weight on a hip55 vote, but less on a hip57 type hip vote ?
09:40
or fluid based on activity, not who the hip effects most ?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
just so i know i'm understanding you properly. I.E. Validators would have had more weight on a hip55 vote, but less on a hip57 type hip vote ?
If it is the will of the people, sure. If you as a voter felt that validators should only have any say in the outcome of HIP55, you would set your entity weighting to 100% for validators and 0% for all of the other entities. You would then vote yes. Assuming you were not a validator at the time AND that everyone else agreed that only validators should have a say on HIP55, the summary weighting would reflect that and your vote would be nulled out since you were not a validator. My guess is that 100% would not ever be achieved. But lets say that the group as a decentralized whole felt that validators should have, for this vote, 80% of the power; your vote would be weighted as such since you were only a hotspot owner at the time.
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KeithR
If it is the will of the people, sure. If you as a voter felt that validators should only have any say in the outcome of HIP55, you would set your entity weighting to 100% for validators and 0% for all of the other entities. You would then vote yes. Assuming you were not a validator at the time AND that everyone else agreed that only validators should have a say on HIP55, the summary weighting would reflect that and your vote would be nulled out since you were not a validator. My guess is that 100% would not ever be achieved. But lets say that the group as a decentralized whole felt that validators should have, for this vote, 80% of the power; your vote would be weighted as such since you were only a hotspot owner at the time.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/09/2022 9:46 AM
okay now I understand it better. Still like it.
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I am arguing that a decentralized environment needs a decentralized voting mechanism. The value that each entity provides to the network is fluid over time, fluid over certain issues, and fluid across every member of the network. And as such, the voting of each member, according to their various entity memberships, should have a fluid influence over each vote that applies at the time of each vote.
09:47
And all of this should be decided by the group as a whole.
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KeithR
I am arguing that a decentralized environment needs a decentralized voting mechanism. The value that each entity provides to the network is fluid over time, fluid over certain issues, and fluid across every member of the network. And as such, the voting of each member, according to their various entity memberships, should have a fluid influence over each vote that applies at the time of each vote.
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/09/2022 9:48 AM
while very complex it is also very fair.
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On the issue of voting, "that is fair" is a true complement. Thank you. I think the complexity is easily solved through the user interface.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/09/2022 9:52 AM
i don't think the complexity should be a issue so far as implementation.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
i don't think the complexity should be a issue so far as implementation.
I have run and processed surveys for the last 25 years. The will of the people is not hard to determine. Good items yield easy to interpret results. The math is not hard either.
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/09/2022 9:55 AM
i totally support the entity weighted vote, and i think your proposition is an amazingly accurate way to give weight to each entity.
09:56
even with some choosing to vote for their entity type to get 100% weight. the overall response would adjust these weights somewhat and better align them with the "will of the people"
09:58
it isn't perfect and nothing is, but it does appear to be the best proposed idea so far as weight assignment, that would yield a true value for the long term over various types of hip's and other network changes/adjustments (edited)
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST)
even with some choosing to vote for their entity type to get 100% weight. the overall response would adjust these weights somewhat and better align them with the "will of the people"
The user interface could help with this issue. If your weightings are outside the norm, the interface could give feedback on that fact. "ElonTusk, your setting of 0% to HNT holders is currently 2.3 standard deviations outside the current average. Are you sure that is the value you wish? Press 'ok' to submit as is or 'cancel' to modify.".
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KeithR
The user interface could help with this issue. If your weightings are outside the norm, the interface could give feedback on that fact. "ElonTusk, your setting of 0% to HNT holders is currently 2.3 standard deviations outside the current average. Are you sure that is the value you wish? Press 'ok' to submit as is or 'cancel' to modify.".
Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/09/2022 10:05 AM
The deeper you go, the more I'm loving it.
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KeithR
The intelligentsia of this project has been arguing about how best to represent the will of the people for awhile now. Round and round they have gone; no answer to be revealed as of yet. I am proposing that is because there is no conceivable fixed answer; it has to be inclusive of all the entities and a weighting that the group as a whole decides each and every time. The will of the people for the people's network.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 10:16 AM
the whole issue here is that those that have outsized power of influence have an inherent incentive to not give it up. so there will always be a group who is viewing the redistribution of power as "taking" something away from them. and will become defensive of it.
10:17
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped and several others have made the point a few times, as far as "how are you supposed to get those that have an interest and benefit from the current way of doing things to support giving up that power"
10:18
the fact that this is even a subject of consideration / debate seems to scream loud and clear "there is a problem here"
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KeithR
I have run and processed surveys for the last 25 years. The will of the people is not hard to determine. Good items yield easy to interpret results. The math is not hard either.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 10:44 AM
Sounds like the right person for the job.
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KeithR
And if ElonTusk is correct that no one in the group wants HNT-holders to have power in a decision, they will indicate as such at the time of the vote. Now, I think it is better if the entity weighting is maintained all the time by the user within the Helium app. That means we would know where the group as a whole stands all the time as well. We would be able to see how fluid those preferences are over time. Or if a particular vote creates a scenario where everyone agrees that validators don't have a say and they change their entity weights for that specific vote. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 11:03 AM
If I understand correctly, I think the UI could be simplified. ========================= Vote: Y/N Select any group you feel should not have a vote on this HIP: ☑️ Group A Group B ☑️ Group C Group D ========================= The weighting adjustment of each group's votes would be calculated automatically off of a pre-set baseline vote weight of each voting group.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 11:21 AM
So @KeithR @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I understand correctly that you're suggesting that the weight of each segments vote is in and of itself voted on / weighted based on what the other segments vote it should be?
11:22
That may be a fairly elegant way go to about deciding who is affected by each vote in a crowd sourced way..
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11:23
So each vote then has two parts. -who gets to vote on this -what is your vote And then the voting system whatever the implementation weighs each ballot cast by the outcome of the first part
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
So @KeithR @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I understand correctly that you're suggesting that the weight of each segments vote is in and of itself voted on / weighted based on what the other segments vote it should be?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 11:24 AM
If I'm understanding @KeithR's idea correctly, yeah
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 11:24 AM
I think it also needs to be a blind vote somehow
11:24
So participants aren't influenced by the perception of others' votes
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Blind voting in combination with voting on chain is semi-impossible.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 11:25 AM
Yeah, current vote totals should not be shown while the vote in ongoing if possible. It's well know that that alters voting.
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If they don't show it on the site it's still only one etl query away
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 11:29 AM
How about "your vote is weighted increasingly less the later in the polling period it's cast"
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groot
Blind voting in combination with voting on chain is semi-impossible.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 11:33 AM
Yeah, that's what I thought. 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
How about "your vote is weighted increasingly less the later in the polling period it's cast"
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 11:34 AM
No... time shouldn't be a factor. That would not be fair.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 11:36 AM
Operating in degrees of improvement here...
11:36
Fairness is a sliding scale 😌
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If I understand correctly, I think the UI could be simplified. ========================= Vote: Y/N Select any group you feel should not have a vote on this HIP: ☑️ Group A Group B ☑️ Group C Group D ========================= The weighting adjustment of each group's votes would be calculated automatically off of a pre-set baseline vote weight of each voting group.
I myself would prefer folks having the ability to fine tune their allocations at 1% level. So that I could say 37% hotspot owners for instance. But yes, your presented interface would be yes or no to each entity and then distribute the 100% by the number of entities you checked.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If I'm understanding @KeithR's idea correctly, yeah
ElonTusk's UI suggestion was "who gets to vote on this". My interface would be "what percentage of say on this issue does each entity have for this vote".
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KeithR
ElonTusk's UI suggestion was "who gets to vote on this". My interface would be "what percentage of say on this issue does each entity have for this vote".
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 11:40 AM
This version does seem less contentious
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I think it also needs to be a blind vote somehow
While I do agree on blind voting, it doesn't seem possible. Should no one advertise the results during the vote? Sure. But we can't stop any of that. I think I am fine with capitulating on the issue and thus letting it be seen by those that want to see it. Something also made easier if the entity weights are managed any time by the user and not just at the time of a vote.
11:42
Maybe there are oracles or smart contracts that also use data on the weightings provided by the group as a whole in real-time. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 11:43 AM
Don't think it needs to be a smart contract really. Just some front end that does the factoring from the available data
11:44
I do like the ranked choice aspect
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KeithR
ElonTusk's UI suggestion was "who gets to vote on this". My interface would be "what percentage of say on this issue does each entity have for this vote".
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 11:46 AM
I guess it's the same with more fine tuning, sure 🙂
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groot
Blind voting in combination with voting on chain is semi-impossible.
need some zero knowledge proofs for maximum over engineering
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capcom
need some zero knowledge proofs for maximum over engineering
Sounds like a plan 🙃
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 11:51 AM
So back to useful discussions...
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11:52
Where we at on voting groups @KeithR ? Sounds like HNT hodlers, hotspots, validators, and routers?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Where we at on voting groups @KeithR ? Sounds like HNT hodlers, hotspots, validators, and routers?
Those seem to be where we are now. But I would build the interface to support any number of entities and to establish some policy that removes entities and allows new ones to be added. For instance, we can easily see hotspots being considered as several more separate entities; LoRaWAN hotspots, 5G hotspots, WiFi hotspots, laserPop hotspots, t-mobile-only_subDAO-hotspots, etc. (edited)
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KeithR
Those seem to be where we are now. But I would build the interface to support any number of entities and to establish some policy that removes entities and allows new ones to be added. For instance, we can easily see hotspots being considered as several more separate entities; LoRaWAN hotspots, 5G hotspots, WiFi hotspots, laserPop hotspots, t-mobile-only_subDAO-hotspots, etc. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 11:57 AM
Makes sense. Flexible. HIP to add new voting groups as needed.
11:58
( I have no idea what laserPop is. lol )
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I guess it's the same with more fine tuning, sure 🙂
While I think your method yields a sufficiently granular percentage over the group as a whole it defeats the interface ability to let someone know they are extremely outside the group's implied consensus. While I don't want to force push each person towards to a tight consensus (by telling them they are 0.5 SD out of the norm), I do want to tell someone they are being a crockpot and give them a chance to acknowledge that is their intention or to be a little less crockpot-y. "Dear user, you are 5.1 standard deviations outside the norm on thinking that hotspot owners should have 100% of the say on governance. The current average is "29%". Choose "ok" to submit as is or "cancel" to modify." to be read as "Dear user, you are being a crockpot. Normal is 29%. Do you wish to remain being a crockpot? If yes, select "ok"."
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
( I have no idea what laserPop is. lol )
Neither do I. It was an example someone used a long while ago as one of the potential network protocols.
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12:05
To this day, I don't know if it was a joke or if it is a real protocol we might be supporting.
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KeithR
While I think your method yields a sufficiently granular percentage over the group as a whole it defeats the interface ability to let someone know they are extremely outside the group's implied consensus. While I don't want to force push each person towards to a tight consensus (by telling them they are 0.5 SD out of the norm), I do want to tell someone they are being a crockpot and give them a chance to acknowledge that is their intention or to be a little less crockpot-y. "Dear user, you are 5.1 standard deviations outside the norm on thinking that hotspot owners should have 100% of the say on governance. The current average is "29%". Choose "ok" to submit as is or "cancel" to modify." to be read as "Dear user, you are being a crockpot. Normal is 29%. Do you wish to remain being a crockpot? If yes, select "ok"."
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:05 PM
I think they should just vote as they feel. They don't need feedback on if they are an outlier or not. That is just vote steering 🙂
12:06
"You are not in the group. Change to be in the group" is a powerful force. Let's not do that.
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KeithR
To this day, I don't know if it was a joke or if it is a real protocol we might be supporting.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:06 PM
I'm going to have to google that now 😄
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I think they should just vote as they feel. They don't need feedback on if they are an outlier or not. That is just vote steering 🙂
We agree to disagree then. :). I think crockpots should be made aware they are being crockpots. If they so choose to continue being crockpots, that is on them and fine with me.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I'm going to have to google that now 😄
I have resisted googling it as I like knowing that it is potentially a joke that stuck. (edited)
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KeithR
Neither do I. It was an example someone used a long while ago as one of the potential network protocols.
there's actually a laser networking protocol that is going to be part of HIP51, potentially
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KeithR
We agree to disagree then. :). I think crockpots should be made aware they are being crockpots. If they so choose to continue being crockpots, that is on them and fine with me.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:07 PM
I strongly disagree. People can write in any candidate they want. We should not be steering them.
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capcom
there's actually a laser networking protocol that is going to be part of HIP51, potentially
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:08 PM
I can't tell ATM if you're just trolling us again or not. lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I can't tell ATM if you're just trolling us again or not. lol
no im serious, lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I can't tell ATM if you're just trolling us again or not. lol
He is sticking to the bit.
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couldn't be more serious
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Don't break capcom!
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trolling and alcohol are the only way to make it through the day
coolcry 2
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KeithR
Those seem to be where we are now. But I would build the interface to support any number of entities and to establish some policy that removes entities and allows new ones to be added. For instance, we can easily see hotspots being considered as several more separate entities; LoRaWAN hotspots, 5G hotspots, WiFi hotspots, laserPop hotspots, t-mobile-only_subDAO-hotspots, etc. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 12:09 PM
Should be pretty extensible / flexible based on your original 100% allocations suggestion. Might get some weird math/rounding errors with odd numbers though.
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KeithR
Don't break capcom!
im serious! there's a company doing wifi with major sites interconnected via lasers
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capcom
im serious! there's a company doing wifi with major sites interconnected via lasers
Ok, cowboy.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Makes sense. Flexible. HIP to add new voting groups as needed.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 12:09 PM
Might be an amendment like I think hip 19 was. But it might be semantics
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capcom
ffs
Pics or it didn't happen. 🙂
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capcom
im serious! there's a company doing wifi with major sites interconnected via lasers
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:10 PM
That was my first thought, a laser point-to-point network, but my google-fu is failing me today. I just keep getting hits for candy.
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ok fine. just wait patiently
12:10
ive even handled the actual lasers
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KeithR
While I think your method yields a sufficiently granular percentage over the group as a whole it defeats the interface ability to let someone know they are extremely outside the group's implied consensus. While I don't want to force push each person towards to a tight consensus (by telling them they are 0.5 SD out of the norm), I do want to tell someone they are being a crockpot and give them a chance to acknowledge that is their intention or to be a little less crockpot-y. "Dear user, you are 5.1 standard deviations outside the norm on thinking that hotspot owners should have 100% of the say on governance. The current average is "29%". Choose "ok" to submit as is or "cancel" to modify." to be read as "Dear user, you are being a crockpot. Normal is 29%. Do you wish to remain being a crockpot? If yes, select "ok"."
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 12:11 PM
Agree with the intention however need to come up with a more laymen way of conveying the significance of standard deviations
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capcom
ffs
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:11 PM
Your history is coming back to bite you. lol
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Agree with the intention however need to come up with a more laymen way of conveying the significance of standard deviations
User interface design at its core. 🙂
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there's only so much value that can be added in a day
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capcom
im serious! there's a company doing wifi with major sites interconnected via lasers
Starlink is doing it in space. I’m sure it can be done down here
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
waits for the rick-roll to load
From arstechnica? seriously?
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KeithR
To this day, I don't know if it was a joke or if it is a real protocol we might be supporting.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 12:12 PM
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groot
From arstechnica? seriously?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:12 PM
I mean, people spoof URLs for RR's all the time. 😉
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Agree with the intention however need to come up with a more laymen way of conveying the significance of standard deviations
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:13 PM
I don't see the need. People should vote as they wish without being influenced to change their vote by the polling booth.
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Keenan
Starlink is doing it in space. I’m sure it can be done down here
Well, for one, my eyes aren't in space.
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groot
Well, for one, my eyes aren't in space.
I had lasers in my eyes 10 years ago. I see perfectly now. Just sayin
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Keenan
I had lasers in my eyes 10 years ago. I see perfectly now. Just sayin
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:15 PM
wavelength matters a lot
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Let’s not start a wavelength measuring contest
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capcom
im serious! there's a company doing wifi with major sites interconnected via lasers
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 12:16 PM
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Keenan
Let’s not start a wavelength measuring contest
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:16 PM
Co2 vs UV. Fight! lol
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12:17
I have way too many laser machines here. 😅 🤓 (edited)
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i mean it's a real thing, im an investor, lol
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12:17
but i understand my trolling precedes me
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12:18
it's just like this inside the company too btw
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capcom
i mean it's a real thing, im an investor, lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:18 PM
It's cool tech.
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Can be a good thing nobody believes you if you spill the beans (edited)
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so i shouldn't say we're launching satellites this year?
muted 1
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well, in the boy who cried wolf, the wolf really does come at the end.
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capcom
so i shouldn't say we're launching satellites this year?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 12:20 PM
@JMF
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i mean we have to spend the money somehow
12:21
it's either that or lambos
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Can only use so many lambo's, few geostationary sats would help and they are hip58 proof too.
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its going to be a fun year!
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Dev team is going to have all the time in the world without libp2p to support
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can't wait. if you saw our AWS bill...
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Nah, you can keep it, we'll put it under: "things HST owners do that we don't see"
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just adding no value over here
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I do wonder how the network would function without seed nodes Troll
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right now, not well at all. post HIP55 i think many community members could run the seed nodes comfortably
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Post hip55 gossiping with a few seed nodes for cold start should be enough
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yup. running a 3500 node p2p network is going to feel like the easiest task in the world
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as I said in #blockchain-development, we should graph it and put it on the wall as a reminder
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im not aware of any p2p network this big that has ever existed
12:28
not sure if that's a good thing though
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of course it is, call the record books
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capcom
it's just like this inside the company too btw
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:38 PM
The company should prank you on April 1 with a bunch of stuffed wolf toys on your desk. 😄
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capcom
it's either that or lambos
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 12:55 PM
One Lambo One Vote
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
One Lambo One Vote
i can get behind that
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12:57
(no gifs here? 😦 )
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
(no gifs here? 😦 )
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 12:58 PM
12:58
Guess not lmao
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 12:58 PM
😭
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/09/2022 12:59 PM
Tragic 😂
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capcom
so i shouldn't say we're launching satellites this year?
ffs. sharing our nova roadmap?
14:37
i propose one cubesat design and ...
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shipit 1
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hashc0de
ffs. sharing our nova roadmap?
#hip-60 after dark.
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krby
#hip-60 after dark.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/09/2022 10:06 PM
Picnics by the light of rocket launches
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capcom
im serious! there's a company doing wifi with major sites interconnected via lasers
My buddy and I bought these two TeraBeam 10Mbps Laser Ethernet devices at a HAM fest at Princeton University back in the early 90's to do laser point to point; mounted them on the roof of each of our houses and played Doom, etc. A year or two later, we implemented them at McKinsey & Co. to connect two buildings in NYC. Now they sit on the table at the entrance to our office, and they still work! https://www.gtelnetworks.com/wp-content/uploads/10MbpslaserEthernet.jpg
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gtelnet
My buddy and I bought these two TeraBeam 10Mbps Laser Ethernet devices at a HAM fest at Princeton University back in the early 90's to do laser point to point; mounted them on the roof of each of our houses and played Doom, etc. A year or two later, we implemented them at McKinsey & Co. to connect two buildings in NYC. Now they sit on the table at the entrance to our office, and they still work! https://www.gtelnetworks.com/wp-content/uploads/10MbpslaserEthernet.jpg
That’s awesome! I wish I had thought of that in college. Instead I ran like a 200ft cat5 cable from the main library to my dorm so I could play quake
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gtelnet
My buddy and I bought these two TeraBeam 10Mbps Laser Ethernet devices at a HAM fest at Princeton University back in the early 90's to do laser point to point; mounted them on the roof of each of our houses and played Doom, etc. A year or two later, we implemented them at McKinsey & Co. to connect two buildings in NYC. Now they sit on the table at the entrance to our office, and they still work! https://www.gtelnetworks.com/wp-content/uploads/10MbpslaserEthernet.jpg
How hard was aiming those things? And keeping them lined up? (edited)
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Wifi Dabba (isp with laser backbone and mesh routers in banglore, india) looks absolutely incredible and impactful. all their youtube videos are worth a watch
07:59
from the sounds of it, aligning them isn't so hard. there's a convex lens at the front that pulls in the signal
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Keenan
How hard was aiming those things? And keeping them lined up? (edited)
Actually was pretty easy. We were only a few blocks from each other and had line of site. They worked great for an entire fall and winter and then stopped working in the spring when all the trees bloomed, but we took care of that issue!
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capcom
That’s awesome! I wish I had thought of that in college. Instead I ran like a 200ft cat5 cable from the main library to my dorm so I could play quake
What an investment that cable was though
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So if hnt is the indicator for network contribution( early adoption, good coverage ,) why are we moving away from hnt weighted vote ? If anything the hnt weight should be based on the average hnt in a wallet for an arbitrary time period to avoid flash buying votes. (edited)
09:24
Doesn’t moving away from hnt weighted allows those that are vested in the form of hnt and unrealized gains to sell their hnt without giving up voting power. That doesn’t makes sense. Can someone tell me what I must be missing ?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 9:40 AM
So if hnt is the indicator for network contribution...
Because it's not 🙂
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So The Whole incentive structure isn’t sound ? What is hnt earned based on then?
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greenz
So The Whole incentive structure isn’t sound ? What is hnt earned based on then?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 9:41 AM
It's payment for work done. It's not network ownership tokens. 🙂
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I know this isn’t payment and blah blah. What corporation would pay the workers in stock and allow them to sell it while retaining ownership ?
09:42
What is the payment amount based on ?
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greenz
I know this isn’t payment and blah blah. What corporation would pay the workers in stock and allow them to sell it while retaining ownership ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 9:42 AM
Stocks are securities. HNT is not a security.
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Yea I know but in Practice DAO operate the same
09:43
The same principle still apply
09:45
Technically we aren’t paid either
09:45
Like you had just mentioned
09:45
So why allow those who cash out and show no faith to decide ?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 9:46 AM
Anyway, HIP will be updating soon, so this particular point of the debate will be moot. 😉 Check above to see the updated ideas. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Stocks are securities. HNT is not a security.
Change ownership to voting rights
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greenz
So why allow those who cash out and show no faith to decide ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 9:46 AM
You can have no HNT and still have skin in the game. (edited)
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Owning hotspots doesn’t equate to contributing to the network.
09:47
“Staking” hnt and earning well does
09:49
Emrits .5x network average contribute about as much as 1/6th of a well earning miner and that hnt difference indicates contribution to the network at current time. If you want to keep your passed efforts voting power then don’t sell your hnt.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You can have no HNT and still have skin in the game. (edited)
Having skin in the game also doesn’t equal helping the network. Spoofers and cheaters have skin in the game too
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09:51
Lazy miners and the top miners have the same skin in the game by those metrics.
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greenz
Owning hotspots doesn’t equate to contributing to the network.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 9:52 AM
Owning installed hotspots most certainly does.
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It does but not in proportion.
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greenz
It does but not in proportion.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 9:53 AM
You're making a lot of assumptions that have already been dealt with. Please read up or wait for the HIP update . 🙂
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Earning hnt does though
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09:53
Ok fair enough.
09:54
So you think the rewards incentivize structure is flawed ? I
09:55
Probably what helium has done best so far but you’re saying it doesn’t proportionally reward for contribution?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're making a lot of assumptions that have already been dealt with. Please read up or wait for the HIP update . 🙂
Where are the updates ?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
How about "your vote is weighted increasingly less the later in the polling period it's cast"
What purpose does this serve lol
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greenz
So you think the rewards incentivize structure is flawed ? I
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 9:57 AM
Definitely 🙂
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greenz
Where are the updates ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 9:58 AM
They will be in the github. When it's updated.
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Ok that makes me see where your coming from much better. So why not address that. Is there no fix ?
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greenz
Ok that makes me see where your coming from much better. So why not address that. Is there no fix ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 9:59 AM
It's a pretty separate topic/HIP 🙂
09:59
Related, but separate
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greenz
What purpose does this serve lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:00 AM
That was just one idea of many as we were throwing out ideas. 🙂
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Reminds me of people fighting their property assessment that is in their favor when the real issue is the tax rate.
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greenz
Reminds me of people fighting their property assessment that is in their favor when the real issue is the tax rate.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:00 AM
This is about governance, not incentives 🙂
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If hnt reward were structured properly then those two could coincide
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greenz
If hnt reward were structured properly then those two could coincide
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:03 AM
Likely not. HNT was never built to be a governance token. And there are a lot of other issues on top of that as well that I don't have time to re-hash right now. RL work needs to be done. 😉
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Hey well thanks for taking time to respond.
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greenz
Hey well thanks for taking time to respond.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:03 AM
No problem 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So if hnt is the indicator for network contribution...
Because it's not 🙂
oh but it is
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greenz
What purpose does this serve lol
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/10/2022 10:06 AM
What purpose does ending your question with "lol" serve?
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Ok_Scholar_9761 on Reddit has a really familiar writing style. can't quite place it though
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
What purpose does ending your question with "lol" serve?
To show that the question is rhetorical and that was a bad idea (edited)
10:12
Also to point out how KISS can be better than adding more ideas. Don’t mean it as a personal attack @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ (edited)
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capcom
Ok_Scholar_9761 on Reddit has a really familiar writing style. can't quite place it though
That post brought me here. Seems like he is missing some facts and wanted to check myself.
10:15
I’m sure many have come on here for the same reasons
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capcom
Ok_Scholar_9761 on Reddit has a really familiar writing style. can't quite place it though
Knew that name was familiar. I was arguing with them on there. I’m marcotics915
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:24 AM
So what do HNT hodlers get paid for their "network contributions"?
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greenz
That post brought me here. Seems like he is missing some facts and wanted to check myself.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:25 AM
Well nice to see Reddit has some useful function. 😉
10:27
Glad it brought you here to where the real discussion is going on. Should i even go look at what has happened over there? lol I looked back when the post first went up.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So what do HNT hodlers get paid for their "network contributions"?
You can earn hnt for network contribution. If you have no faith then cash out. If you want to help direct the network your hodled hnt will allow you to do so. HODL should be encouraged, weighted hnt voting does that albeit not perfectly.
10:48
If you are asking about buying and holding hnt. That is also somewhat beneficial to the network. If you have the faith to risk the price action you deserve to be rewarded
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greenz
You can earn hnt for network contribution. If you have no faith then cash out. If you want to help direct the network your hodled hnt will allow you to do so. HODL should be encouraged, weighted hnt voting does that albeit not perfectly.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:48 AM
You don't earn HNT just from holding HNT
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No not hnt, you earn voting power
10:50
New hip would eliminate that.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:50 AM
You said HNT was the indicator of network contribution. But holding HNT does not pay you HNT.
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greenz
New hip would eliminate that.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:50 AM
Again, you need to read back
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EARNED Hnt is the indicator of network contribution,
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greenz
EARNED Hnt is the indicator of network contribution,
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:51 AM
What HNT is earned by holding HNT?
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Held hnt helps price action and shows faith in network while assuming risk
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
What HNT is earned by holding HNT?
Not sure where you are reading that
10:52
Two different things
10:52
If you got paid in stocks and sold stock why would you expect to continuously get rewarded
10:52
Unless it’s for new work
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:52 AM
If HNT is earned by your definition of contributing to the network, that means by your definition, that holding HNT is not contributing since they don't get rewarded HNT.
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I which case here you would earn hnt (edited)
10:53
It contributes in a different way. So it should be incentivized
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greenz
It contributes in a different way. So it should be incentivized
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:54 AM
They don't get paid HNT
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Shows faith , means they aren’t rich( unrealized gains)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They don't get paid HNT
Exactly why I’m saying they need more vote
10:54
How are they incentivized not to cash out
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greenz
Exactly why I’m saying they need more vote
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:54 AM
Then you break your own definition. (edited)
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greenz
How are they incentivized not to cash out
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:55 AM
They are speculators
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No you’re just speaking in absolutes and avoiding nuance
10:55
Same logic as having validators lock up there hnt (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:55 AM
If you have the faith to risk the price action you deserve to be rewarded
The get rewarded if the price goes their way.
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In which case they actually get rewarded and hnt
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you have the faith to risk the price action you deserve to be rewarded
The get rewarded if the price goes their way.
Price could go up or down that is beside the point
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greenz
In which case they actually get rewarded and hnt
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:56 AM
They don't get any more HNT (HNT holders) (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They don't get any more HNT (HNT holders) (edited)
Staking gets rewarded hnt (edited)
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greenz
Staking gets rewarded hnt (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:56 AM
Yes
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:57 AM
Ah, you were talking about validators
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 10:58 AM
Yeah, if they want to stake, they get votes. There is no debate there. (edited)
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I mean holding in your wallet for a three month period is essentially staking with no early opt out penalty
10:59
Or interest for that matter
10:59
That’s why I say just have the Average hnt in wallet for a period be the weight
11:00
Not in an instance as it currently is
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greenz
I mean holding in your wallet for a three month period is essentially staking with no early opt out penalty
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 11:00 AM
Holding in your wallet doesn't stop you from cashing out. No risk, no reward.
11:00
Real staking has locks.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Holding in your wallet doesn't stop you from cashing out. No risk, no reward.
You should look at Vauld
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greenz
You should look at Vauld
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 11:00 AM
I use Vauld 😉
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Fixed deposits no opt out penalty
11:00
Does it lock it ?
11:00
Not really
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 11:00 AM
Vauld is not staking
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What is the difference between a fixed deposit that earns interest and staking
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greenz
What is the difference between a fixed deposit that earns interest and staking
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 11:01 AM
One is loaning, the other is staking. Staking has locks.
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Both are loans.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 11:02 AM
Anyway... again, please read up. A lot of what you are debating is moot based on previous conversations 🙂
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The locking itself isn’t as beneficial as the mere fact that it’s being hodled both are the same in practice. One is forced the other is done voluntarily.
11:06
The least you can do is give the ones holding based on faith alone a larger say. We don’t want everyone with a hotspots that is only concerned with break even deciding What is best for the network. They don’t care if it fails because they aren’t long term speculating and are not concerned with anything other than short term goals. (edited)
11:09
If you have a hotspot and not much hnt why are you being rewarded with inflated voting power? You are already “paid”. This pays those that go the extra step
11:09
With voting power.
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Das Kapital (edited)
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greenz
The least you can do is give the ones holding based on faith alone a larger say. We don’t want everyone with a hotspots that is only concerned with break even deciding What is best for the network. They don’t care if it fails because they aren’t long term speculating and are not concerned with anything other than short term goals. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 11:14 AM
again read back
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Will do. I’m only Replying based on what you are saying. I have no idea what is actually being proposed other than what you have mentioned
11:17
And reading back i don’t see a clear proposition. Only crazy ideas like let’s have time weighted voting. I’m a a dummy if you can link me where to read back I’d appreciate it.
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“It’s never worked but it’ll work this time”
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
One is loaning, the other is staking. Staking has locks.
Fixed deposits usually have locks vauld is the one exception. They are usually referred to as C.D.s (edited)
11:31
There are also those who have staked and being able to withdraw early. So it being locked isn’t the qualifier
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HG
“It’s never worked but it’ll work this time”
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 11:34 AM
If you just here to troll, please leave.
11:34
@Keenan
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Keep the conversation constructive please
11:35
Comical
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If HNT is earned by your definition of contributing to the network, that means by your definition, that holding HNT is not contributing since they don't get rewarded HNT.
the contribution is capital, just in a different way. and capital has value in the ecosystem
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capcom
the contribution is capital, just in a different way. and capital has value in the ecosystem
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 12:59 PM
They were saying that earning HNT was the marker for contributing to the network. I was pointing out that HNT holders don't earn HNT, so their statement was flawed.
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Depends on your interpretation. Maybe buying is a type of earning?
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capcom
Depends on your interpretation. Maybe buying is a type of earning?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 1:00 PM
Yeah, no. lol Buying is not earning/rewards from the network. 🙂
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If you say so!
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 1:00 PM
Words mean things. 😉
13:02
Anyway, as I mentioned to them, reading back will show them that the points they were debating were already moot based on the evolution of the ideas here. 🙂
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Looking forward to it
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capcom
Looking forward to it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 1:05 PM
Hopefully a update to the HIP will be coming today/tomorrow. 🙂
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I’m guessing we’ll all be slightly distracted tomorrow
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capcom
I’m guessing we’ll all be slightly distracted tomorrow
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 1:06 PM
Understatement of the year. 😉
13:06
(so far lol )
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Plenty of year left
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capcom
Ok_Scholar_9761 on Reddit has a really familiar writing style. can't quite place it though
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/10/2022 1:12 PM
sorry to burst your bubble. not me.
13:14
tend to stay far, far away from reddit.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They were saying that earning HNT was the marker for contributing to the network. I was pointing out that HNT holders don't earn HNT, so their statement was flawed.
You are making connections that aren’t there. I said EARNING hnt is an Indicator. I didn’t say it was the only way to contribute. Acquiring (by whatever means) and holding hnt doesn’t earn more hnt but like cap said it does contribute.
15:52
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped I can’t even find where I say what you state. This was my statement “So if hnt is the indicator for network contribution( early adoption, good coverage ,) why are we moving away from hnt weighted vote ?” (edited)
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greenz
You are making connections that aren’t there. I said EARNING hnt is an Indicator. I didn’t say it was the only way to contribute. Acquiring (by whatever means) and holding hnt doesn’t earn more hnt but like cap said it does contribute.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 3:53 PM
You said that earnings were the result of contribution to the network.
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Yes that remains true. Those aren’t mutually exclusive
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greenz
Yes that remains true. Those aren’t mutually exclusive
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 3:54 PM
And HNT holders don't get earnings...
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Did I say only way?
15:54
And that’s out of context
15:55
Both can be true. Earnings are a result of contributing and holding hnt benefit the network.
15:56
Perhaps holding should earn hnt. But That’s a another subject
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greenz
Perhaps holding should earn hnt. But That’s a another subject
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/10/2022 3:57 PM
They can from staking. 🙂
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I was waiting for that
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There are definitely several multiple various things I would suggest this HIP reconsiders or modifies
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HG
There are definitely several multiple various things I would suggest this HIP reconsiders or modifies
go on...
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Fizzy
go on...
Hard for me to articulate right now. Need a few days
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HG
Hard for me to articulate right now. Need a few days
Would be very helpful for you to lay them out in the next 24-36 hours. Chris is trying to integrate the good parts of the discussion that has unfolded in this channel.
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Y’all are too much. Respect the hell out of you
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What entities have the most hotspots ? Renters. They exploit human labor to mount their shit. And lousy 30% out of 0.05 average HNT per day. Living them with no voting power. LOL
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/11/2022 1:57 PM
Exploit human labor 🤔
16:10
@Trebusz
16:11
Besides the human labor part you have a point.
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More privacy then labor but anyway, power to the people. Data is ours to sell.
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Trebusz
What entities have the most hotspots ? Renters. They exploit human labor to mount their shit. And lousy 30% out of 0.05 average HNT per day. Living them with no voting power. LOL
hackNthisNthat 🇨🇦 05/11/2022 4:22 PM
This is not a discussion thread about rev-share business models.
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Trebusz
What entities have the most hotspots ? Renters. They exploit human labor to mount their shit. And lousy 30% out of 0.05 average HNT per day. Living them with no voting power. LOL
Those who have fleets serve a purpose for the network. They build blockchain infrastructure. Isn’t that a good thing? But I disagree with the notion that the one who has many hotspots should get more voting power than an individual who has one hotspot. Some have a bunch of boxed up hotspots still sitting in their basement waiting for a deployment home. These are not contributing to the network. (edited)
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AndrewsMD
Those who have fleets serve a purpose for the network. They build blockchain infrastructure. Isn’t that a good thing? But I disagree with the notion that the one who has many hotspots should get more voting power than an individual who has one hotspot. Some have a bunch of boxed up hotspots still sitting in their basement waiting for a deployment home. These are not contributing to the network. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 7:20 PM
Inactive hotspots are not being given votes by this HIP 🙂
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AndrewsMD
Those who have fleets serve a purpose for the network. They build blockchain infrastructure. Isn’t that a good thing? But I disagree with the notion that the one who has many hotspots should get more voting power than an individual who has one hotspot. Some have a bunch of boxed up hotspots still sitting in their basement waiting for a deployment home. These are not contributing to the network. (edited)
Tell that to @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
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Looking at current conditions, . . . having people lock up their tokens to vote has merit. Kinda like, put your m0ney where your mouth is.
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20:06
Can’t sell if it’s locked. And if you aren’t willing to lock, should you really be voting????
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Large fleet owners and even smaller fleet owners like myself (around 40 miners), we sometimes place hotspots in one location while we find new hosts/locations to place them at. It serves us little to keep them permanently at these 'orphanage' locations and is reflected in the earnings we receive. The solution would be to have voting power based on a hotspot's earnings (value to the network). So like, four well placed hotspots could end up having more voting power than twelve hotspots that are sitting in the same window together. (edited)
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AndrewsMD
Can’t sell if it’s locked. And if you aren’t willing to lock, should you really be voting????
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/11/2022 8:10 PM
Validators accomplishes same thing
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The more tokens that are locked for a longer duration, the more scarce the token. It’s as simple as “Boom. 2+2= 4 minus 1 that’s 3. Quick Maths.”
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
Validators accomplishes same thing
You can lock for 4 years to increase your voting power in HIP51. Validators only lock up for 5 months.
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AndrewsMD
The more tokens that are locked for a longer duration, the more scarce the token. It’s as simple as “Boom. 2+2= 4 minus 1 that’s 3. Quick Maths.”
People like the liquidity of the token. If the value goes high, maybe you want to sell some of it. The only problem I see with voting via Validator lock is it needs to be figured out how validator pool owners can have a voice. Some people are in pools with one person owning 5kHNT and another person might own less than 500HNT. Everybody wants to have a voice, but the current voting mechanic allows for one validator to only vote one way with their 10k staked coins. I'm not sure if it can be coded to allow for example 10% of a validator pool to vote one way and the other 90% another.
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AndrewsMD
You can lock for 4 years to increase your voting power in HIP51. Validators only lock up for 5 months.
This idea is a bit much.
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Marvelous
This idea is a bit much.
Others disagree. Depends on which lens you look through I guess. https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/defi-projects-embrace-vote-locking-161806673.html
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20:28
Not saying it’s perfect. There are pro’s and cons. I just haven’t seen a better proposal than that being discussed in HIP51.
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AndrewsMD
Others disagree. Depends on which lens you look through I guess. https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/defi-projects-embrace-vote-locking-161806673.html
Interesting. Gave it a quick read. Makes sense. A good chunk of validators would probably agree to longer lock terms if that meant more voting power.
20:30
4 years seems like a lot for me still. I would do one or two 😂
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The number of hotspots shouldn’t be a factor. PoC rewards affirms this. Miners contributions are reflected in their hnt earnings. Wether it’s 100 or 10 all that matters is what coverage they provide. I say no to participation trophies. (edited)
20:35
We don’t need to incentivize having hotspots. We need to incentivize good unique coverage
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Marvelous
People like the liquidity of the token. If the value goes high, maybe you want to sell some of it. The only problem I see with voting via Validator lock is it needs to be figured out how validator pool owners can have a voice. Some people are in pools with one person owning 5kHNT and another person might own less than 500HNT. Everybody wants to have a voice, but the current voting mechanic allows for one validator to only vote one way with their 10k staked coins. I'm not sure if it can be coded to allow for example 10% of a validator pool to vote one way and the other 90% another.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:35 PM
We've been talking about that very thing in side chats. Giving the stakers in a validator pool a voice 🙂
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greenz
The number of hotspots shouldn’t be a factor. PoC rewards affirms this. Miners contributions are reflected in their hnt earnings. Wether it’s 100 or 10 all that matters is what coverage they provide. I say no to participation trophies. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:38 PM
So scale a hotspots voting power based on the HIP17 transmit scaling?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So scale a hotspots voting power based on the HIP17 transmit scaling?
That can be easily manipulated.
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Marvelous
That can be easily manipulated.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:38 PM
So can HNT earnings 😉
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Go past 30 day earnings
20:39
well.. one is easier to manipulate than the other.
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Marvelous
Go past 30 day earnings
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:39 PM
Go 30 days scaling 🙂
20:39
You can't buy TC scaling 😉
20:39
You can buy HNT to stuff a wallet average 😉
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Carl-bot BOT 05/11/2022 8:39 PM
No discussions on buying or selling HNT please!
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:39 PM
FFS Carl...
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So scale a hotspots voting power based on the HIP17 transmit scaling?
Does that account for all the factors like if it’s outside vs inside for one?
20:40
You know what does HNt rewards
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greenz
You know what does HNt rewards
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:40 PM
Tell that to a gamer 😉
20:41
I suspect they would laugh. 😄
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Tell that to a gamer 😉
That argument is a logical fallacy.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:42 PM
And anyone from a small town with lots of coverage, but few witnesses wouldn't agree with you either.
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You can easily manipulate TS scale lol I do it (but not selfishly), so as not too mess up the TS scale of the larger hex. Also, the farms that cheat buy hundreds and place them so their TS scale is each 1.0
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:42 PM
aka HNT is not a measure of good coverage
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And anyone from a small town with lots of coverage, but few witnesses wouldn't agree with you either.
Well that’s because we are in PoC stage.
20:43
One step at a time
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greenz
Well that’s because we are in PoC stage.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:43 PM
Which doesn't end for 20 years 🙂
20:44
And if you're basing things on HNT, your earnings will always go down, as will your voting power.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And if you're basing things on HNT, your earnings will always go down, as will your voting power.
Yeah that’s the advantage of being an early adopter
20:44
Don’t see a problem
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
aka HNT is not a measure of good coverage
It's a pretty good measure. The cheaters can cheat vote that way either by TS or HNT earned. Gamers are a small percentage anyway.
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greenz
Yeah that’s the advantage of being an early adopter
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:45 PM
You should not get more say with 1 miner, 6 months ago, that someone that is running 9 miners today (edited)
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The reason we reward hnt should be the same as to how we allocate votes. Ideally
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Marvelous
It's a pretty good measure. The cheaters can cheat vote that way either by TS or HNT earned. Gamers are a small percentage anyway.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:45 PM
~10% of hotspots and ~25% of POC rewards. Not sure that's small. 🙂
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greenz
Yeah that’s the advantage of being an early adopter
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/11/2022 8:45 PM
First mover advantage should financially benefit you maybe but not your vote
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You should not get more say with 1 miner, 6 months ago, that someone that is running 9 miners today (edited)
Depends on network growth you may or may not
20:46
It’s not about time in the real world
20:46
That’s not how blockchain works
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greenz
The reason we reward hnt should be the same as to how we allocate votes. Ideally
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:46 PM
Ideally yes, but in reality, it doesn't work so well.
20:46
And that's just looking at earnings.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
~10% of hotspots and ~25% of POC rewards. Not sure that's small. 🙂
Speaking of numbers and percentages. I would guess that there is a higher % missasserting hotspots rather than the other kind of cheaters.
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greenz
Depends on network growth you may or may not
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:47 PM
A miner6 months ago with 1 month of activity has 10x the voting power of a miner today with 1 month of activity. That's not ok (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
First mover advantage should financially benefit you maybe but not your vote
If you sell the hnt you lost that advantage, if you don’t then you have more skin in the game and are helping the network even more and should get more vote.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
First mover advantage should financially benefit you maybe but not your vote
The benefit is due to holding in that case
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
A miner6 months ago with 1 month of activity has 10x the voting power of a miner today with 1 month of activity. That's not ok (edited)
Why does months matter ?
20:48
How many hotspots ago was that ?
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Marvelous
Speaking of numbers and percentages. I would guess that there is a higher % missasserting hotspots rather than the other kind of cheaters.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:49 PM
I would imagine so yes. You're talking about the minor location spoofing (<1km), or are we talking the major spoofing with stuff like attenuators?
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greenz
Why does months matter ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:49 PM
The same work was done. Why should the older miner get 10x for the same work?
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Earnings are less now due to network size not because months have passed
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I would imagine so yes. You're talking about the minor location spoofing (<1km), or are we talking the major spoofing with stuff like attenuators?
I'm saying using Transmit Scale to determine voting power is a very bad idea.
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greenz
Earnings are less now due to network size not because months have passed
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:50 PM
Doesn't matter why. The facts are still there (edited)
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Marvelous
I'm saying using Transmit Scale to determine voting power is a very bad idea.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:50 PM
Honestly I wouldn't push for it anyway. People stuck in big cities would never go for it anyway 😄
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The same work was done. Why should the older miner get 10x for the same work?
Under that logic rewards should remain constant as well. That’s not how to structure votes. There’s a reason we reward those who joined when less miners were on line.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Honestly I wouldn't push for it anyway. People stuck in big cities would never go for it anyway 😄
Easy to fake. Anyone can do it.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:51 PM
(also res4 overreach 😉 )
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greenz
Under that logic rewards should remain constant as well. That’s not how to structure votes. There’s a reason we reward those who joined when less miners were on line.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:51 PM
Votes don't have to follow payments for work
20:52
Honestly this is all a bit silly. The current edits being written include HNT holders as a voting group. 🙂
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greenz
Under that logic rewards should remain constant as well. That’s not how to structure votes. There’s a reason we reward those who joined when less miners were on line.
Well that's why there's suggestions to have different entities have different voting power. For example hotspot owners control 33% of the vote, HNT Holders could control 20-30%, and so on. I'm just throwing %'s out there.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Votes don't have to follow payments for work
I’m saying earnings directly correlate with hotspot owner contributions. Factors such as early adoption and coverage are considered. For obvious reasons These are the same people we want to have more vote.
20:54
Who cares how many spots you have.
20:55
Or if you came earlier because that only applies to@holders
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greenz
I’m saying earnings directly correlate with hotspot owner contributions. Factors such as early adoption and coverage are considered. For obvious reasons These are the same people we want to have more vote.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:55 PM
That's the thing: They don't. The POC system is flawed. And there are other ways to get HNT
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And hodlers should also have more vote
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greenz
And hodlers should also have more vote
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:55 PM
More than whom?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That's the thing: They don't. The POC system is flawed. And there are other ways to get HNT
Ok let’s fix this instead of creaTing an imperfect solution with its own flaws and vulnerabilities
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
More than whom?
Non holders. Paper hands
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greenz
Ok let’s fix this instead of creaTing an imperfect solution with its own flaws and vulnerabilities
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:56 PM
You want to base a system of governance on a flawed system of coverage.
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High earners who don’t hosl
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greenz
High earners who don’t hosl
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:57 PM
Why? They installed good hotspots. Why should they not get a voice?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You want to base a system of governance on a flawed system of coverage.
You missed the first few words “let’s fix”
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greenz
You missed the first few words “let’s fix”
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:57 PM
You and I both know that's not going to happen. The minute anyone tries to change the rewards system, people lose their minds. 😉 (edited)
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Two different approaches. I want to stay on earth, I think fixing what is easiest and at hand should be done. You want to go to mars and make that work
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greenz
Two different approaches. I want to stay on earth, I think fixing what is easiest and at hand should be done. You want to go to mars and make that work
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:58 PM
Fixing POC is by far not the easiest. lol
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Two birds one stone vs two birds
20:59
The voting structure has its own set of flaws and vulnerabilities
20:59
So now we have to focus on having two things work right and avoiding cheaters instead of one
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 8:59 PM
what vulnerabilities?
21:00
Cheaters are not a factor in this
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:00 PM
They could be now. Thankfully it has not been a thing to date.
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Off the top
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:01 PM
That was about TS scale, which we're not using...
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Here is one view of escrowed voting or Vote by token lock. Pro’s -) A locked up token increases scarcity. -) It’s an objective measure (along with validators) of how committed token holders are to the project’s long term viability. This includes the whales, groupers, and guppies. -) Voting interests are more aligned with the long term health of the ecosystem. -) It does give the smaller investor the option of having a larger voting impact if they are willing to lock their tokens. Con’s -) Reduced liquidity -) Reduced participation in community voting. Why? some don’t want to lose the option of short term liquidity. -) The disparity in voting power between whales and smaller investors are not addressed. -) The true voting impact of the smaller investor willing to lock up their tokens for 4 years can be drowned out by whales who are also willing to lock up their tokens for 4 years as well. The whale can even achieve the desired outcome by locking up a smaller % or their holdings in comparison to the smaller investor who put it all on the line. Therefore, If the elephant in the room is that the whales who have invested millions into the long term success of the project will not concede voting power to those who are less financially vested, . . . Why not give incentive for both parties to lock up their tokens? It benefits the whole ecosystem. (edited)
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Wrong one just the 2nd
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greenz
Wrong one just the 2nd
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:02 PM
Not sure which message you're replying to
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greenz
Wrong one just the 2nd
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:02 PM
Oh 🙂
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AndrewsMD
Here is one view of escrowed voting or Vote by token lock. Pro’s -) A locked up token increases scarcity. -) It’s an objective measure (along with validators) of how committed token holders are to the project’s long term viability. This includes the whales, groupers, and guppies. -) Voting interests are more aligned with the long term health of the ecosystem. -) It does give the smaller investor the option of having a larger voting impact if they are willing to lock their tokens. Con’s -) Reduced liquidity -) Reduced participation in community voting. Why? some don’t want to lose the option of short term liquidity. -) The disparity in voting power between whales and smaller investors are not addressed. -) The true voting impact of the smaller investor willing to lock up their tokens for 4 years can be drowned out by whales who are also willing to lock up their tokens for 4 years as well. The whale can even achieve the desired outcome by locking up a smaller % or their holdings in comparison to the smaller investor who put it all on the line. Therefore, If the elephant in the room is that the whales who have invested millions into the long term success of the project will not concede voting power to those who are less financially vested, . . . Why not give incentive for both parties to lock up their tokens? It benefits the whole ecosystem. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:03 PM
There is already a vote for staked HNT
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You and I both know that's not going to happen. The minute anyone tries to change the rewards system, people lose their minds. 😉 (edited)
And you think this is going to go better ?
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greenz
And you think this is going to go better ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:03 PM
If done right, yes.
21:04
This isn't touching their rewards
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Not gonna happen with the fleet stigma attached to this
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greenz
Not gonna happen with the fleet stigma attached to this
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:05 PM
If it was just "1 miner = 1 vote",I could see that. But it's not. 🙂
21:06
In this system, the whole point is no one interest group can bully the vote themselves. They have to build consensus
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I think the hip would be great of you just don’t factor number of hotspots. I don’t see how that is relevant unless we are giving out participation trophies/votes
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
In this system, the whole point is no one interest group can bully the vote themselves. They have to build consensus
I like that
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greenz
I think the hip would be great of you just don’t factor number of hotspots. I don’t see how that is relevant unless we are giving out participation trophies/votes
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:07 PM
Active hotspots.
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Just no hotspot count
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Active hotspots.
But why?
21:07
This is so fleet pov
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greenz
But why?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:07 PM
The are a critical part of the network operation. They should get a say, even if they can't put it in the 100% best location.
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greenz
This is so fleet pov
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:08 PM
I have 5 active hotspots. Not exactly a fleet 😉
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They do get a say. It’s even better because it’s proportional to how critical they are
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@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped. You know that I respect your opinion. What are your thoughts regarding the elephant in the room? Why not have the voting system contribute to overall value of the ecosystem?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I have 5 active hotspots. Not exactly a fleet 😉
I have 20+ and don’t see why I should be rewarded or have more vote for that alone
21:10
If I do well for the network I’ll get hnt and ill hold it. And that will give me more vote
21:10
Not having mediocre hotspots
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AndrewsMD
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped. You know that I respect your opinion. What are your thoughts regarding the elephant in the room? Why not have the voting system contribute to overall value of the ecosystem?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:10 PM
Rigging the the voting system to prop up the economics? I think the staking to vote already does that without a token lock that deprives people of liquidity to continue building out the network.
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greenz
I have 20+ and don’t see why I should be rewarded or have more vote for that alone
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:11 PM
Because you put in the work to expand the network. 🙂
21:11
Work = rewards. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Because you put in the work to expand the network. 🙂
Yea that’s what hnt rewards indicate
21:12
Not just hosting them nilly Willy
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:12 PM
Having access to favorable geography and a density of neighboring hotspots should not grant you extra voting power. 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Having access to favorable geography and a density of neighboring hotspots should not grant you extra voting power. 🙂 (edited)
Hard disagree
21:12
I think that 100% should
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greenz
Hard disagree
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:12 PM
That is just privilege
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That is just privilege
Asking people ? Everyone has that privilege?
21:13
That’s hard work and it should be rewarded
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greenz
Asking people ? Everyone has that privilege?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:13 PM
Location and money. Not asking people.
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It’s also an asset
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:15 PM
Put yourself in other peoples' shoes
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You know you made an excellent point. Not everyone has money to buy multiple hotspots ( so why reward that by your logic) what is at everyones disposal is making the best set up for what they have available. Hence hnt matters and hotspots don’t (edited)
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greenz
You know you made an excellent point. Not everyone has money to buy multiple hotspots ( so why reward that by your logic) what is at everyones disposal is making the best set up for what they have available. Hence hnt matters and hotspots don’t (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:18 PM
😂 1
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Rigging the the voting system to prop up the economics? I think the staking to vote already does that without a token lock that deprives people of liquidity to continue building out the network.
I would hope that the community continues to make decisions which “prop up the economics”. Another word phrase to use is “good governance” rather than calling it rigging the vote. But in the end, the diversity in the communities views and differing opinions make us better/stronger/smarter.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:18 PM
(so sad when I can't gif. 🥲 )
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Yeah what’s that about lol
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greenz
Yeah what’s that about lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:19 PM
insert Kirk Khan gif here
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AndrewsMD
I would hope that the community continues to make decisions which “prop up the economics”. Another word phrase to use is “good governance” rather than calling it rigging the vote. But in the end, the diversity in the communities views and differing opinions make us better/stronger/smarter.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:21 PM
Yes. Right now we have effectively one "party" in the house voting. We need a coalition gov instead. (Our non-US friends will get that far better than us 2 party dorks. lol )
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I think hnt should be seen as voting rights and that anything else that makes it valuable is a byproduct. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:22 PM
Here's the thing @greenz... You're getting the best of both worlds. A hotspots vote and a HNT vote. House of Lords and House of Commons. 🙂
21:23
(waits for the UK folks to come in and tell me how bad an example that is. lol ) (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Here's the thing @greenz... You're getting the best of both worlds. A hotspots vote and a HNT vote. House of Lords and House of Commons. 🙂
Sorry im a coverage elitist I guess. Don’t see the value in participating that hnt does account for on the miner side (edited)
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greenz
Sorry im a coverage elitist I guess. Don’t see the value in participating that hnt does account for on the miner side (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:24 PM
We should try to not be elitist 🙂
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If my coverage isn’t desired anymore a PoC can address that
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:25 PM
Got enough of that going on in the world and business already. 😅
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
We should try to not be elitist 🙂
This isn’t a welfare system.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes. Right now we have effectively one "party" in the house voting. We need a coalition gov instead. (Our non-US friends will get that far better than us 2 party dorks. lol )
Hard disagree my friend. Looking into the future, HNT and the respective subDAO token(s) remains the equalizing metric of value to the ecosystem. (edited)
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greenz
This isn’t a welfare system.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:25 PM
This isn't welfare.
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Not everyone has to participate (edited)
21:25
Only do so if you have a good location.
21:26
To your point , we do have to reward more hnt to lone wolves to counter no hotspot count
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AndrewsMD
Hard disagree my friend. Looking into the future, HNT and the respective subDAO token(s) remains the equalizing metric of value to the ecosystem. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:26 PM
That is not incompatible with this. We're already writing in explicit bits for the adding of addition voting groups that can be added as needed, with the DAOs in mind. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That is not incompatible with this. We're already writing in explicit bits for the adding of addition voting groups that can be added as needed, with the DAOs in mind. (edited)
I’ll have to read the Hip60 again. I haven’t seen the update.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
This isn't welfare.
Getting something for existing sounds like welfare.
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greenz
This isn’t a welfare system.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:27 PM
Did they not work? Did they not spend on the hardware? Are they not providing coverage? How is this "welfare"? We're not handing them HNT
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Vs getting it for results
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AndrewsMD
I’ll have to read the Hip60 again. I haven’t seen the update.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:28 PM
It's in progess 🙂
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greenz
Getting something for existing sounds like welfare.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:28 PM
That's not at all what this is.
21:30
This is the voice of all that build this network, not voice of the elite and privileged.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Did they not work? Did they not spend on the hardware? Are they not providing coverage? How is this "welfare"? We're not handing them HNT
If they worked hnt will reflect it. If they provide coverage hnt will reflect that. It’s welfare because you are giving out a minimum to everyone regardless of work done. Buying a hotspot is a risk and in it if itself without great coverage isn’t a benefit to the network.
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greenz
If they worked hnt will reflect it. If they provide coverage hnt will reflect that. It’s welfare because you are giving out a minimum to everyone regardless of work done. Buying a hotspot is a risk and in it if itself without great coverage isn’t a benefit to the network.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:31 PM
If they worked?? wow...
21:32
super cringe
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Ok I’m repeating my self
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
super cringe
Indeed.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's in progess 🙂
Please tag me when an updated rendered view is available. I would like to read it 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:32 PM
To disregard their work like that speaks volumes.
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AndrewsMD
Please tag me when an updated rendered view is available. I would like to read it 🙂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:32 PM
Will do. 🙂
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21:33
(oh weird... just noticed the icon next to my name changed. huh)
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Yes if they worked lol. If you work you get hnt and vote. The only way you don’t is if you don’t work
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:33 PM
(admins must be playing with the roles again)
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greenz
Yes if they worked lol. If you work you get hnt and vote. The only way you don’t is if you don’t work
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:34 PM
That's simply not how it works, and with as many hotspots as you have, you know that.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That's simply not how it works, and with as many hotspots as you have, you know that.
Honestly no. My hotspot goes down I see what I can do to repair it. All my hotspots do 4x average bc of my efforts
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:35 PM
No amount of work is going to change the geography around you.
21:36
You assume everyone has access to the same things you do.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
No amount of work is going to change the geography around you.
I don’t have access to geography that anyone else doesn’t. I have one home that is a “privilege” the rest of the locations are due to my effort not anything else.
21:38
Now if you’re a mute or a shut in or have agoraphobia then yes i have an advantage
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greenz
Now if you’re a mute or a shut in or have agoraphobia then yes i have an advantage
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:38 PM
Wasn't going to that extreme. lol
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Imagine the advantage i would have as a hot chick vs being a harry bald dude lol (edited)
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greenz
I don’t have access to geography that anyone else doesn’t. I have one home that is a “privilege” the rest of the locations are due to my effort not anything else.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:39 PM
You're not thinking in terms of the world.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's in progess 🙂
Will the next rendered view also be applicable to LoRaWAN, 5G, Wi-Fi, Li-Fi, and whatever else comes along?
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greenz
Imagine the advantage i would have as a hot chick vs being a harry bald dude lol (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:40 PM
I honestly haven't assumed either, though I'd at least guess Male if I had to guess 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You're not thinking in terms of the world.
Other places they have different advantages. The hotspot I have in Mexico for instance. Over there host fees stretch a lot more than here
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21:40
You can offer much less
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AndrewsMD
Will the next rendered view also be applicable to LoRaWAN, 5G, Wi-Fi, Li-Fi, and whatever else comes along?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:41 PM
That's the idea. Simple amendment to add a voting group. "5G hotspots" or "Helium wifi operators" for example. Trying to make it flexible enough to add in the different interest groups as they arise. 🙂 (edited)
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It’s about rewarding with hnt and votes those who help the network. It’s not about trying to make it equal.
21:42
Think equality vs justice
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greenz
It’s about rewarding with hnt and votes those who help the network. It’s not about trying to make it equal.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:43 PM
Making it so it's not another system that is just controlled by the rich in their walled garden.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That's the idea. Simple amendment to add a voting group. "5G hotspots" or "Helium wifi operators" for example. Trying to make it flexible enough to add in the different interest groups as they arise. 🙂 (edited)
Hnt should be the vote token and Lora , 5g , wi fi should be rewarded with that in mind. Wether it be through sub tokens that have their distinct conversion rates and variables for hnt vote
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:46 PM
Says the guy with 20+ hotspots
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Making it so it's not another system that is just controlled by the rich in their walled garden.
Then if that is the purpose I would deduct for multiple hotspots. Not give more to them
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greenz
Then if that is the purpose I would deduct for multiple hotspots. Not give more to them
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:47 PM
Why? They helped build the network. They have skin in the game.
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People with more hotspots in their walled gardens are the ones that benefit from hotspot consideriation
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greenz
People with more hotspots in their walled gardens are the ones that benefit from hotspot consideriation
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:47 PM
everyone benefits
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Why? They helped build the network. They have skin in the game.
You’re the one that want the common man to have more say
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greenz
You’re the one that want the common man to have more say
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:48 PM
Which is why not just HNT rich bois get a vote.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Why? They helped build the network. They have skin in the game.
If they indeed helped HNT WILL REFLECT THAT.
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greenz
If they indeed helped HNT WILL REFLECT THAT.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:48 PM
No, it doesn't
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We reward work not risk
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greenz
We reward work not risk
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:49 PM
Tell that to the HST holders
21:49
The fact that you don't think other people put in work to install hotspots is rather insulting.
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Risk rewards itself independent of the network direct control ( price action)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The fact that you don't think other people put in work to install hotspots is rather insulting.
Where did you read that ?
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greenz
Risk rewards itself independent of the network direct control ( price action)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:50 PM
Tell me again what work the HST holders did? Or did they just take risk? (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The fact that you don't think other people put in work to install hotspots is rather insulting.
If they did that HNT WILL REFLECT (edited)
21:51
You don’t put a hotspot up and get zero hnt
21:51
Hasn’t happened once to me (edited)
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greenz
If they did that HNT WILL REFLECT (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:51 PM
It doesn't work that way. A hotspot in SF makes crap, no matter how much work was put in.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It doesn't work that way. A hotspot in SF makes crap, no matter how much work was put in.
That because it’s splitting the work
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21:51
Lol
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greenz
You don’t put a hotspot up and get zero hnt
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:51 PM
I have seen that, for no fault of the owner.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I have seen that, for no fault of the owner.
Well that’s a manufacturer issue. Helium isn’t responsible for that
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greenz
That because it’s splitting the work
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:52 PM
With who? They put up the hotspots, not someone else.
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greenz
Well that’s a manufacturer issue. Helium isn’t responsible for that
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:52 PM
Not a maker issue either
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With all the other hotspots.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not a maker issue either
An anomaly
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greenz
With all the other hotspots.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:53 PM
The other hotspots didn't put up the hotspot. The owner did.
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You don’t base things like that on the exception
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:54 PM
No matter the amount of work you put in, there are factors you can't alter or control. Saying "I get good rewards just because I worked hard" is simply false.
21:54
And again: Tell me again what work the HST holders did? Or did they just take risk?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
The other hotspots didn't put up the hotspot. The owner did.
You don’t get hnt vote for just putting up the miner. That your prerogative and a risk you assume. Why would I want a person in a saturated area to have more say ? That would lead to masses voting for whatever benefits saturated areas
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greenz
You don’t get hnt vote for just putting up the miner. That your prerogative and a risk you assume. Why would I want a person in a saturated area to have more say ? That would lead to masses voting for whatever benefits saturated areas
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:55 PM
It wasn't saturated when they put it up.
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greenz
You don’t get hnt vote for just putting up the miner. That your prerogative and a risk you assume. Why would I want a person in a saturated area to have more say ? That would lead to masses voting for whatever benefits saturated areas
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:56 PM
No... the vote isn't just controlled by hotspots owners. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And again: Tell me again what work the HST holders did? Or did they just take risk?
That I agree with and can be dealt with by limiting group weight and without consideration of hotspot count
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It wasn't saturated when they put it up.
So what. Now the market is at work.
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greenz
That I agree with and can be dealt with by limiting group weight and without consideration of hotspot count
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:57 PM
They vote with HNT. So limit the weight of HNT votes?
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There market was good now it isn’t. That’s not the burden of the network m
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greenz
There market was good now it isn’t. That’s not the burden of the network m
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:58 PM
There wouldn't be a network if they hadn't put them up for you
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They vote with HNT. So limit the weight of HNT votes?
Hnt weight would only apply within each group (miners, Val’s, hst)
21:58
Each group has its own weight
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greenz
Hnt weight would only apply within each group (miners, Val’s, hst)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:58 PM
HST is not a voting bloc
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 9:58 PM
Nova doesn't vote
21:59
Massive conflict of interest
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Ok hmm 🤔
22:00
That needs to be figured out then lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:00 PM
Sure there is sure to be some overlap between the two groups 😉
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22:00
The lines in places are very blurry 😉
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It would be ideal if we could distinguish earned hnt in the form of mining from non mining held hnt. If there is a way wouldn’t that address the issue ?
22:02
And separate those into voting groups
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greenz
It would be ideal if we could distinguish earned hnt in the form of mining from non mining held hnt. If there is a way wouldn’t that address the issue ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:02 PM
That would help a lot. But with the nature of crypto, I don't think there is a way to do that. It would be far easier to just be issuing a real governance token. 🙂
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22:03
One that can't be bought or traded
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:03 PM
But Nova folks shot that down last time I mentioned it. 😅
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As long as it disregards hotspot count 😛
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:04 PM
So without KYC, the next logical step was to base voting on network parts. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
But Nova folks shot that down last time I mentioned it. 😅
Who cares you said nova doesn’t vote
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
So without KYC, the next logical step was to base voting on network parts. 🙂
Ah
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greenz
As long as it disregards hotspot count 😛
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:04 PM
Actually it would be similar to earning HNT. You'd just "HGT" in addition to your HNT
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greenz
Who cares you said nova doesn’t vote
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:05 PM
Nova may not vote, but they still control a lot of things 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Actually it would be similar to earning HNT. You'd just "HGT" in addition to your HNT
That’s 100% what I would agree to
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greenz
That’s 100% what I would agree to
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:05 PM
This is not my surprised face 😉 lol
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Damn bro your patient lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:06 PM
Honestly I haven't given it too much thought since then to figure out flaws inthe basic idea 🙂
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greenz
Damn bro your patient lol
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:06 PM
hmm? 🙂
22:07
About the fact that I've been on this topic for the last year? 😉 lol
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Thanks for humoring me and having this discussion
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greenz
Thanks for humoring me and having this discussion
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:07 PM
Hey, NP man 🙂
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22:08
Long as we can debate and not be mad at each other, it's all good 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Long as we can debate and not be mad at each other, it's all good 🙂
22:09
Imagine if this was Reddit
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:09 PM
In the end, I want all of us to succeed and get filthy rich so we can live our lives without financial worries. 🙂 (edited)
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greenz
Imagine if this was Reddit
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:10 PM
Oh man... I do my best to stay away from that cesspool. lol
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Haha I need to try harder. You have a good one, talk to you later.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
In the end, I want all of us to succeed and get filthy rich so we can live our lives without financial worries. 🙂 (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:11 PM
(or at least set the groundwork so that the people that put in the work can get there 😉 )
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greenz
Haha I need to try harder. You have a good one, talk to you later.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/11/2022 10:11 PM
Laters 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I just wish I could find a reason why holders should have a vote that can't be resolved by "stake with a validator"
I just wished I could find a reason hotpot owners should have a vote that can’t be resolved by providing good coverage. (edited)
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greenz
I just wished I could find a reason hotpot owners should have a vote that can’t be resolved by providing good coverage. (edited)
Solved. The updated model for this HIP has a mechanism for you to express these feelings and influence the group's entity weightings.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I keep hearing about some that would have "more to lose" if the votes don't go their way. These people have "bought" HNT to have a more heavily weighted vote. Or they are someone who was able to get in early and have held on to their HNT for a year or more. One may have extreme interest in the vote, the other may not care, or maybe doesn't even have a great functioning Hotspot anymore because of conjestion. Either way, currently, they have more voting power than someone who is new and actively growing the network. Because of the natural thinning of HNT availability, and the raising value of HNT, newer miners to Helium will never match the voting power of the first 2 examples. No matter how much they work to improve the network, or how much they invest in new hotspots and new locations, they will never match the voting power of those that were able to enter early. I understand we are world wide, and the following comment may not be received well by some, but in the U.S., if you are running for The President of the United States, and you have hundreds of millions of dollars supporting your cause, with millions of people backing your adjenda, you have exactly the same voting power as the homeless guy who is offered a free meal if he gets on a bus to be taken to a voting precinct to vote. I mean no disrespect to those that have helped to get us where we are now, but moving forward, Helium is a different animal as we slowly move from PoC to data transfers. It is important that the new miners entering our project have the same voting power as those that are OG and entered under a different Helium than we will become. I understand the white sheets are the white sheets, and the project itself has not changed, but the way we accomplish the project may change and we need equal votes so everyone, regardless of when they joined, has a voice. (edited)
This is all based on the assumption these early adopters are also holdlers. The cost for you to buy hnt is the same as the opportunity cost for the holder not to sell that hnt. So why exactly are we not incentivizing and letting those who pioneer , provide superior coverage, and show faith and help the token price action by holding ?
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Carl-bot BOT 05/12/2022 3:58 PM
No discussions on buying or selling HNT please!
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greenz
This is all based on the assumption these early adopters are also holdlers. The cost for you to buy hnt is the same as the opportunity cost for the holder not to sell that hnt. So why exactly are we not incentivizing and letting those who pioneer , provide superior coverage, and show faith and help the token price action by holding ?
Also solved. Good governance is inclusive. Contribution to success of the project yields greater voting power than not providing any value-add.
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KeithR
Also solved. Good governance is inclusive. Contribution to success of the project yields greater voting power than not providing any value-add.
Yea both those things are solved because that’s what hnt rewards are based on. Thus that doesn’t need to be fixed. Number of hotspots is not relevant nor an indicator of value add. (edited)
16:50
Why are we going to incentivize more hotspots(no value add) when we already incentivize value add for good deployments?
16:50
Voting rights are an incentive
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greenz
Yea both those things are solved because that’s what hnt rewards are based on. Thus that doesn’t need to be fixed. Number of hotspots is not relevant nor an indicator of value add. (edited)
I think ElonTusk's example of why would a hotspot of equal contribution deserve 10 times as much voting power than one implemented now?
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KeithR
I think ElonTusk's example of why would a hotspot of equal contribution deserve 10 times as much voting power than one implemented now?
Because it did more work.
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Voting Rights are not an incentive. They are arguably a right of belonging to the membership. However, we can't have the ultimate democracy of one person one vote.
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Less miners means more work
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greenz
Because it did more work.
No it did the same work, just 6 months ago.
16:52
His example is for one month's work.
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KeithR
His example is for one month's work.
Time irl is not how blockchains measure work
16:52
They did more work
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greenz
Less miners means more work
A hotspot doing the same work six months ago for one month made 10x what the same hotspot is doing this month.
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Do is take more work to do anything with 2 than it does 10 people ?
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Same number of witnesses, beacons, rewards. (edited)
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KeithR
Same number of witnesses, beacons, rewards. (edited)
Yeah bc they took the risk and built the network before it was proven
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greenz
Time irl is not how blockchains measure work
idk what this one is about, but ill counter. but they have been already rewarded for their good work, in hnt. do older people get more votes in real lie for anything? all I can think of is a senior discount. (edited)
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Fizzy
idk what this one is about, but ill counter. but they have been already rewarded for their good work, in hnt. do older people get more votes in real lie for anything? all I can think of is a senior discount. (edited)
Again that excludes the fact they did the work and HODLED as well.
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Some folks have great set ups but live in the boonies. Just as important to the network as one in a suburban area. They both provide 3 square miles of coverage. Not going to earn same amount of HNT.
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Fizzy
idk what this one is about, but ill counter. but they have been already rewarded for their good work, in hnt. do older people get more votes in real lie for anything? all I can think of is a senior discount. (edited)
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KeithR
Some folks have great set ups but live in the boonies. Just as important to the network as one in a suburban area. They both provide 3 square miles of coverage. Not going to earn same amount of HNT.
That’s the exception that I can agree needs to be addressed. Perhaps better suited for a povc hip
16:56
They should also get rewards right ?
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A hotspot is important to the function of the network. How many rewards it earns is based on location, density, height, etc. You earned more HNT for doing a good job comparatively. As a voting right, you have a hotspot you get a vote. You have 10 hotspots you get 10 votes. Just like if you have 100 HNT you get 1000 votes and if you have a 100 HNT you get 1000 votes. The part we are inserting is a modifier based on the group's decision as to the relative value-add of each entity. (edited)
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You can’t complain about early adopters having more hnt and being rich at the same time. They could be richer if they sold and therefore would have no vote or they could have more vote but then wouldn’t be rich 🤑
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KeithR
A hotspot is important to the function of the network. How many rewards it earns is based on location, density, height, etc. You earned more HNT for doing a good job comparatively. As a voting right, you have a hotspot you get a vote. You have 10 hotspots you get 10 votes. Just like if you have 100 HNT you get 1000 votes and if you have a 100 HNT you get 1000 votes. The part we are inserting is a modifier based on the group's decision as to the relative value-add of each entity. (edited)
Hnt reflects this already
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greenz
You can’t complain about early adopters having more hnt and being rich at the same time. They could be richer if they sold and therefore would have no vote or they could have more vote but then wouldn’t be rich 🤑
Not complaining they are richer in HNT at all. I just think that each hotspot should get the same voting power as any other hotspot. And if you have 41 of them, you get 41 times as many vote.
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Only miners that contribute should decide the networks best interest. Those who contribute very little should have little say.
17:00
No I don’t think crappy deployments should be weighted the same as hard effort ones
17:01
If only we had a way to measure what individual hotspots contribute relative to the network
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Each hotspot owner gets a vote on hotspot ownership no?
17:01
How is that not fair?
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KeithR
Each hotspot owner gets a vote on hotspot ownership no?
No hotspot owners receive hnt and that reflects the value add
17:02
Value add = network interest =voting rights
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KeithR
How is that not fair?
That’s equal not fair
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We have four entities; LoRaWAN hotspots, 5G hotspots, validators, and HNT holders. Each wallet has some amount of each one (can be 0 of course). The group also decides the relative add of each entity. You think it is 0%, 0%, 0%, and 100% , then you make that assertion and it is included in deciding the group's stance on the entity weightings.
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How is that fair lol
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Keep in mind that after the DAOs come into existence, some folks won't have any HNT despite how good of an install they have. They may just have DNT.
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I can decide you add zero value ?! Ffs
17:06
That’s populism
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You influence the group's final decision by adding your stance on the weightings.
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KeithR
Keep in mind that after the DAOs come into existence, some folks won't have any HNT despite how good of an install they have. They may just have DNT.
And dnt and other sub tokens should have their hnt conversion rates that are relative to the value add to helium
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Average everyone's assertions and we get the opinion of the group as a whole. Use that as a modifier on voting power.
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KeithR
Average everyone's assertions and we get the opinion of the group as a whole. Use that as a modifier on voting power.
You are describing populism
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greenz
And dnt and other sub tokens should have their hnt conversion rates that are relative to the value add to helium
The opinion of the group. What is wrong with that. Why do you get to decide on voting power. Why do I get to decide? This is decentralized; we all decide.
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I don’t think we should be able to limit others vote through populist or whale votes (edited)
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No limitation being done. Voting power appropriately increased based on the overall group's decision as to what the weightings should be.
17:10
And the actual values of each entity you posses.
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With hnt weight. We don’t directly decide. The market and povc does
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What about my beautiful install that for some reason wasn't beaconing? Not my fault. It was the fault of the p2p. I have been deprived of HNT as a result. My vote has been curtailed. Under this model I get my vote for the install and I get my votes for how much HNT I earned.
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When making a voting or any incentive structure you have to ask, who will this benefit ? Who does this take from? What type of decisions will proposed structure likely yield
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I think this model benefits everyone based on how the group as a whole has decided the value add of that entity.
17:13
If the group decides that hotspot ownership is the most important thing, then boom that is what gets the biggest voting power increase.
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KeithR
What about my beautiful install that for some reason wasn't beaconing? Not my fault. It was the fault of the p2p. I have been deprived of HNT as a result. My vote has been curtailed. Under this model I get my vote for the install and I get my votes for how much HNT I earned.
My installs don’t beacon sometimes. They still earn hnt. That’s a bad example and shows me you don’t understand what current PoC incentives.
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IF the group decides that HNT holding and validator stakes are the most important...so be it.
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Witnessing is the main current incentive
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KeithR
IF the group decides that HNT holding and validator stakes are the most important...so be it.
And if it doesn’t thats just arbitrary and populist
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greenz
My installs don’t beacon sometimes. They still earn hnt. That’s a bad example and shows me you don’t understand what current PoC incentives.
The intention was that these beacon approximately every 6 hours. Yes I earned HNT for witnessing. I was supposed to also earn for beaconing.
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Why risk that ?
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KeithR
The intention was that these beacon approximately every 6 hours. Yes I earned HNT for witnessing. I was supposed to also earn for beaconing.
So the amount is negligible. Hardly worth breaking something that doesn’t need to be fixed
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greenz
And if it doesn’t thats just arbitrary and populist
You keep saying populist like it is a bad thing. This is a decentralized voting scenario. The will of the wallets should be represented.
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greenz
This is all based on the assumption these early adopters are also holdlers. The cost for you to buy hnt is the same as the opportunity cost for the holder not to sell that hnt. So why exactly are we not incentivizing and letting those who pioneer , provide superior coverage, and show faith and help the token price action by holding ?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/12/2022 5:15 PM
With all respect, I believe you missed the point of this post. You're response makes little sense to the post you highlighted. The post reflects the changes to how the project will be accomplished. There are newer people, with great backgrounds, who could really help the future of Helium. Why should their efforts be drowned out by someone who got in early, earned a bunch of HNT (not bought) and may not be doing anything to help the future of Helium, other than hold their HNT. Many in the first several months earned more HNT on one hotspot than someone newer, who has several hotspots, can earn in 15 years. This has to be considered when you are weighing votes.
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What about the spoofers that have many hotspots /s. you can make all sort of exception examples. We shouldn’t structure based on outliers. (edited)
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KeithR
You keep saying populist like it is a bad thing. This is a decentralized voting scenario. The will of the wallets should be represented.
The will of the wallets lol that’s hnt weighted voting 😂
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greenz
The will of the wallets lol that’s hnt weighted voting 😂
Wallets with hotspots. Wallets with validator stakings. Wallets with HNT. All of these scenarios should be considered.
17:18
Every wallet gets a say in the entity weightings.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
With all respect, I believe you missed the point of this post. You're response makes little sense to the post you highlighted. The post reflects the changes to how the project will be accomplished. There are newer people, with great backgrounds, who could really help the future of Helium. Why should their efforts be drowned out by someone who got in early, earned a bunch of HNT (not bought) and may not be doing anything to help the future of Helium, other than hold their HNT. Many in the first several months earned more HNT on one hotspot than someone newer, who has several hotspots, can earn in 15 years. This has to be considered when you are weighing votes.
Because Holding does “help the future” and they are still exposed to risk by doing so
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greenz
What about the spoofers that have many hotspots /s. you can make all sort of exception examples. We shouldn’t structure based on outliers. (edited)
We can't solve this situation. Same spoofers have a boatload of HNT as a result. They suck. All we can do is try to stop it going forward.
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KeithR
Wallets with hotspots. Wallets with validator stakings. Wallets with HNT. All of these scenarios should be considered.
They are just the number of hotspots is non relevant
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KeithR
Every wallet gets a say in the entity weightings.
This already is the case (edited)
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If it was irrelevant we wouldn't be celebrating reaching 800,000 hotspots today. (edited)
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greenz
This already is the case (edited)
You and I disagree on this point. This model allows all of us to have a say on this point.
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KeithR
If it was irrelevant we wouldn't be celebrating reaching 800,000 hotspots today. (edited)
We ain't celebrating "100,000 great hotspots, 500,000 mediocre ones, and 200,000 shitty ones". (edited)
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KeithR
We can't solve this situation. Same spoofers have a boatload of HNT as a result. They suck. All we can do is try to stop it going forward.
I was only giving you an example of the type of argument you were using
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KeithR
If it was irrelevant we wouldn't be celebrating reaching 800,000 hotspots today. (edited)
I must have missed the party 🎉
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greenz
I was only giving you an example of the type of argument you were using
and I am acknowledging that it is a scenario we can't protect against. The current voting system gives them ill-gotten voting power. Same. I can't do anything about it.
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KeithR
We ain't celebrating "100,000 great hotspots, 500,000 mediocre ones, and 200,000 shitty ones". (edited)
We’re also not celebrating cheaters but they are all lumped in there.
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greenz
We’re also not celebrating cheaters but they are all lumped in there.
Obviously. I am not sure your point. I was saying we are celebrating 800,000 hotspots because we as a group value the number of hotspots on the network. It is important to the success of the project.
17:26
No consideration as to the quality of those hotspots' install qaulity. Because they are rewarded HNT for that. Which we all value too. (edited)
17:27
We all value validators too.
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It’s not like I wouldn’t benefit from one hotspots vote but emrits will benefit much more. And realistically I see this as diminishing my hard work and effort by reducing my vote, since my deployment average 3x-5x network average.
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It does not diminish your hard work in any sense.
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KeithR
No consideration as to the quality of those hotspots' install qaulity. Because they are rewarded HNT for that. Which we all value too. (edited)
Quality of validators are also mirrored in their hnt rewards
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Quality is rewarded in HNT yes. But the presence of a validator itself is also important.
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Who gains from this : people with one or many mediocre spots, rev shares Who loses : those hotspots who earn more than network average
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The group as a whole may value HNT staked in validators differently than HNT just being HODL'd. I would like that delta in perceived value to be considered. (edited)
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KeithR
Quality is rewarded in HNT yes. But the presence of a validator itself is also important.
Yeah they get hnt for that presence. If they don’t get any hnt that presence has zero value
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greenz
Yeah they get hnt for that presence. If they don’t get any hnt that presence has zero value
My post just above addresses this point.
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KeithR
The group as a whole may value HNT staked in validators differently than HNT just being HODL'd. I would like that delta in perceived value to be considered. (edited)
It shouldn’t. The interest on staking is the proper mechanism for that incentive
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greenz
Who gains from this : people with one or many mediocre spots, rev shares Who loses : those hotspots who earn more than network average
I think you are incorrect on who loses. In fact I don't think anyone loses. Hotspot ownership is counted. HNT holdings are counted. Validator stakings are counted. The group as a whole decides on the relative value of each. The entity weights are applied to each voter's counts and an appropriate voting power calculus is made and counted; HIP is approved or not.
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greenz
It shouldn’t. The interest on staking is the proper mechanism for that incentive
Along with hips on hnt distribution.
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KeithR
I think you are incorrect on who loses. In fact I don't think anyone loses. Hotspot ownership is counted. HNT holdings are counted. Validator stakings are counted. The group as a whole decides on the relative value of each. The entity weights are applied to each voter's counts and an appropriate voting power calculus is made and counted; HIP is approved or not.
This a zero sum. If there is any change there must be a relative winner and a loser.
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KeithR
I think you are incorrect on who loses. In fact I don't think anyone loses. Hotspot ownership is counted. HNT holdings are counted. Validator stakings are counted. The group as a whole decides on the relative value of each. The entity weights are applied to each voter's counts and an appropriate voting power calculus is made and counted; HIP is approved or not.
Again we fundamentally disagree on that mere hotspot ownership needs to be counted
17:36
Hnt rewards already accounts for that
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greenz
This a zero sum. If there is any change there must be a relative winner and a loser.
I think the original purpose of the HIP is that the group as a whole did not get to decide that HNT holdings was the sole determinant of voting power. So HNT holders at this point have potentially an outsized voting power as a result. If the group as a whole agrees with the current model they would indicate as such with the entity weights.
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greenz
Again we fundamentally disagree on that mere hotspot ownership needs to be counted
You are correct, you and I disagree. This model provides a mechanism for all of us to determine what we as a group want to be the case.
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KeithR
I think the original purpose of the HIP is that the group as a whole did not get to decide that HNT holdings was the sole determinant of voting power. So HNT holders at this point have potentially an outsized voting power as a result. If the group as a whole agrees with the current model they would indicate as such with the entity weights.
That’s just good tokens and rewards incentive
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greenz
That’s just good tokens and rewards incentive
But we as a group have not agreed upon that just yet.
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KeithR
I think the original purpose of the HIP is that the group as a whole did not get to decide that HNT holdings was the sole determinant of voting power. So HNT holders at this point have potentially an outsized voting power as a result. If the group as a whole agrees with the current model they would indicate as such with the entity weights.
Due to those efforts and faith in the network. I don’t see the issue. Capital is important
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You would get to give a giant "I told you so" if the group as a whole votes that way on the entity weights.
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greenz
Due to those efforts and faith in the network. I don’t see the issue. Capital is important
Capital is important. Time, energy, knowledge, effort also plays into the success of the project.
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KeithR
Capital is important. Time, energy, knowledge, effort also plays into the success of the project.
All are accounted for using hnt
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17:40
There is indicator that better represent that
17:41
Your proposal is just arbitrary and guessing (edited)
facepalm 2
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greenz
All are accounted for using hnt
Not true. Come on. I make more HNT because I chose Helium Rising to be my validator operator than someone that picked a different operator. So the amount of HNT in the end does not reflect the shared amount of HNT staked. (edited)
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KeithR
You would get to give a giant "I told you so" if the group as a whole votes that way on the entity weights.
Lol I WILL when this hip doesn’t pass. (edited)
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greenz
Your proposal is just arbitrary and guessing (edited)
No guessing whatsoever. The group as a whole gets to decide. Decentralized decision making. (edited)
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KeithR
Not true. Come on. I make more HNT because I chose Helium Rising to be my validator operator than someone that picked a different operator. So the amount of HNT in the end does not reflect the shared amount of HNT staked. (edited)
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greenz
So due to your “time, energy , knowledge and effort”https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/971348002595815454/974471053260779570
No. I happened to "meet" Ross & Darwin first.
17:43
There was no information to determine they would be better. (edited)
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Look I’m not articulate enough to keep going. I just know what is logical and rational. I can’t explain my pov better than this https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/971348002595815454/974471053260779570
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greenz
Look I’m not articulate enough to keep going. I just know what is logical and rational. I can’t explain my pov better than this https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/971348002595815454/974471053260779570
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 5:45 PM
Oh you've been very clear. You think the will of the people is a bad thing.
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You are doing fine. However, I think you are not being inclusive enough to allow for true decentralized decision making. I too believe that HNT is a rather good proxy for value-add. However, this model is trying to switch from a proxy for perceived value-add to exactly what the group declares to be the relative value-add. (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Oh you've been very clear. You think the will of the people is a bad thing.
Cmon Elon use your ideas. Straw man arguments are logical fallacies and indicate you can’t defend your ideas
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If the group as a whole agrees with the current model we will see that immediately.
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greenz
Cmon Elon use your ideas. Straw man arguments are logical fallacies and indicate you can’t defend your ideas
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 5:47 PM
You've said as much many many times. This isn't strawman.
17:48
You think populism is a bad thing and that this is just "welfare".
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Is someone that has 1000 HNT more suited to make decisions for the group than someone who has 1000 hotspots but splits with their hosts a large percentage of the earnings and had to sell off their HNT to fund their hotspot growth?
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 5:49 PM
That your rewards are purely due to your "hard work" and that anyone else that gets less didn't work as hard as you.
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The people whose will should be considers are those who contribute. By your logic we should give voting rights to all regardless of network involvement. That’s why it’s a straw man.
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greenz
The people whose will should be considers are those who contribute. By your logic we should give voting rights to all regardless of network involvement. That’s why it’s a straw man.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 5:49 PM
Incorrect.
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KeithR
Is someone that has 1000 HNT more suited to make decisions for the group than someone who has 1000 hotspots but splits with their hosts a large percentage of the earnings and had to sell off their HNT to fund their hotspot growth?
Yup and you brought up a great point.
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greenz
Yup and you brought up a great point.
Then we fundamentally disagree and will not be able to make it across the chasm between us. (edited)
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That point being that the hip doesn’t consider the hosts rights and artificially inflates the owners
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I think it is a very hard comparison of value-add to make.
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greenz
That point being that the hip doesn’t consider the hosts rights and artificially inflates the owners
The hosts get to vote with their HNT.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That your rewards are purely due to your "hard work" and that anyone else that gets less didn't work as hard as you.
Yea and the problem with that is ?
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KeithR
The hosts get to vote with their HNT.
Yeah that’s in the current voting
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greenz
Yea and the problem with that is ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 5:53 PM
It's not true.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not true.
In general yes. I don’t believe in making the rule for the exceptions. If you aren’t doing well for a sustained period chances are it’s due to user error.
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greenz
In general yes. I don’t believe in making the rule for the exceptions. If you aren’t doing well for a sustained period chances are it’s due to user error.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 5:54 PM
This is not about edge cases
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I’ve had to troubleshoot haven’t had any spot not earn. Can it happen? maybe but out of 22 hasn’t
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greenz
In general yes. I don’t believe in making the rule for the exceptions. If you aren’t doing well for a sustained period chances are it’s due to user error.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 5:55 PM
that is not true and far too simplistic. (edited)
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KISS it
17:56
This hip is far too complex and over engineered to a fault
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greenz
KISS it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 5:56 PM
The world exists in shades of grey, even as much as you'd like it to be black and white.
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Hnt varies ( many Shades ) hot spot ownership is black and white.
17:57
Your own logic contradicts you
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greenz
This hip is far too complex and over engineered to a fault
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 5:58 PM
It's actually extremely simple, but you choose not to understand, because it does not fit your world view, so your bias kicks in and you literally can't see it.
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greenz
Yeah that’s in the current voting
That is why we didn't include them as an entity. If we had a way to give them voting power as a result of being a host, I would have argues for it. I think hosts are important and should have some say. That said, my hosts are likely to be mouthpieces for my stance though; they did agree to be my hosts so they must have agreed with everything I said beforehand.
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No one with hotspots that perform well would vote for this. Only poor performing owners will think this is a good idea.
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17:59
If you can prove otherwise I’d be surprised
18:00
There are may poor performing hotspots. That’s why it’s populist and against networks best interest
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greenz
This hip is far too complex and over engineered to a fault
Over engineered? " Hey group, what is your perception of the relative worth of each of these entities that make up the network?" "By the way, you can do this at any time you want, we will save your settings for it in the app (on the blockchain)." 'OK, now vote." We will calculate your voting power based on the group's weightings and your holdings in each of those entities." Simple.
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We are here to expand the network. The network isn’t here for us to manipulate for our own self interest
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greenz
We are here to expand the network. The network isn’t here for us to manipulate for our own self interest
Um, it is decentralised...so yes we are supposed to guide to our own interest as a whole.
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greenz
This hip is far too complex and over engineered to a fault
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:01 PM
Literally keeping it simple so people understand it, unlike some other HIPs cough51cough 😉
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It’s not hard to understand it’s unnecessarily complex.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Literally keeping it simple so people understand it, unlike some other HIPs cough51cough 😉
I try not to agree in whole with ELonTusk most of the time...but this is true. I have spent 100s of hours and still find parts difficult to put together.
18:02
Have to eat dinner and walk the dog. Back in two hours.
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KeithR
I try not to agree in whole with ELonTusk most of the time...but this is true. I have spent 100s of hours and still find parts difficult to put together.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:02 PM
I try not to agree in whole with ELonTusk most of the time...
Really? Awww.. 🥲
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greenz
If you can prove otherwise I’d be surprised
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:03 PM
so...we're supposed to prove your claim? 🤨 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:03 PM
You might just have a fundamental issue with decentralized projects then 🤷‍♂️
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greenz
There are may poor performing hotspots. That’s why it’s populist and against networks best interest
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:03 PM
what exactly is populist? could you provide your definition of what makes this (or anything) populist?
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greenz
KISS it
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:04 PM
you're welcome to participate in conveying productive feedback in the way of "KISS" 🤷‍♂️
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
so...we're supposed to prove your claim? 🤨 (edited)
Sure what does your fleet average? I normally wouldn’t ask but in the spirit of transparency and since you are putting your name on it.
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greenz
The people whose will should be considers are those who contribute. By your logic we should give voting rights to all regardless of network involvement. That’s why it’s a straw man.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/12/2022 6:05 PM
Not true. Many, many people don't care enough to vote. So, their vote won't count.
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greenz
Sure what does your fleet average? I normally wouldn’t ask but in the spirit of transparency and since you are putting your name on it.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:06 PM
my point was, you don't make claims and then ask others to evidence them. https://effectiviology.com/burden-of-proof/ (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
what exactly is populist? could you provide your definition of what makes this (or anything) populist?
Populism in this case is letting those who don’t contribute get to decide over those who do. There are many that don’t contribute as needed in saturated areas or due to low effort deploying. You’re letting that majority decide rather than those who truly have the networks interest. High earners will vote to rewards good coverage. What do you think low earners or saturated area owners will vote for ?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:08 PM
populism has nothing to do with "contribution"
18:08
a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.
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You call these elites holders (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:09 PM
also if you re-read the backscroll, you'd see that the performance-based concerns have been discussed several times and there is no considerable pushback to those kinds of suggestions
18:09
so as I said a moment ago, you're more than welcome to participate in offering up suggestions.
18:09
just being a critic doesn't really help all that much. suggest alternatives, I'm sure we'd all be glad to consider and discuss. 🤷‍♂️
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:10 PM
He doesn't like populism because he thinks he's elite 😉
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Not true. Many, many people don't care enough to vote. So, their vote won't count.
Beside the point same could be said for whales that don’t participate in voting
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
my point was, you don't make claims and then ask others to evidence them. https://effectiviology.com/burden-of-proof/ (edited)
So is that a no comment?
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greenz
You call these elites holders (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:11 PM
no you do not lmao
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Yeah the whole hip is about how hodlers are bad lol
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greenz
Yeah the whole hip is about how hodlers are bad lol
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:12 PM
"lol" no it's not
18:13
you don't even really seem principally against the intent of the hip considering you suggest that performance and contribution to utility should be considered
18:13
based on my 4 minutes of backscroll reading
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What is your issue with hnt weight that this hip solves
18:13
?
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greenz
What is your issue with hnt weight that this hip solves
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:13 PM
the fact that value can be moved from outside of the helium ecosystem to influence voting
18:14
meaning fiat, any other chain/token, etc.
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Like I said this is way too complex that is easily solved with one mechanism.
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greenz
Like I said this is way too complex that is easily solved with one mechanism.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:14 PM
what is "this"
18:14
what part of "this" is too complex
18:14
and what is the "one mechanism"
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You’ve already mentioned it the rest is just fluff.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:15 PM
what is
18:15
your suggestion
18:15
?
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The anti flash vote buy protection. Average HnT over last three months or any arbitrary period. (edited)
18:16
That’s one thing I could agree on
18:17
If they want to buy votes let them they will have to hold and expose themselves to risk and price action
18:17
While helping out our price action
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
what is
Why does hotspot number matter ? (edited)
18:18
Maybe because you have a lot of hotspots that perform very badly
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18:19
If you show or even just tell me your average across your fleet then that would confirm or dismiss that motive
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greenz
Why does hotspot number matter ? (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:19 PM
a few reasons
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Stamp your name on that alone and you probably got a hip passed( flash voter rule) (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:20 PM
u gotta get away from the performance metrics man lol trust me I wouldn't be putting this much time and energy into changing the system through HIPs I would just put that time and effort into improving setups
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
u gotta get away from the performance metrics man lol trust me I wouldn't be putting this much time and energy into changing the system through HIPs I would just put that time and effort into improving setups
That answers my question (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:21 PM
idk why people always question intent just read the HIP it's right there in writing lol
18:21
if it gives me an unfair advantage then demonstrate it and consider it against the status quo
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Intent matters duh
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18:22
Motives matter
18:22
That’s the whole psychology of a rewards structure
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greenz
Beside the point same could be said for whales that don’t participate in voting
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/12/2022 6:22 PM
You are bouncing all over the place 😏 Your examples have included saturated, non caring, non working Hotspot owners, and now you say that there may be whales that don't care enough to vote. A comparison of a possible hundreds of thousands versus thousands.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:22 PM
real easy to do character assassination rather than debate the merits of the actual proposed changes
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
You are bouncing all over the place 😏 Your examples have included saturated, non caring, non working Hotspot owners, and now you say that there may be whales that don't care enough to vote. A comparison of a possible hundreds of thousands versus thousands.
The whale example was an example of an assumption like the one I had replied to (edited)
18:24
And many points doesn’t make it less reason to dismiss this hip. It’s more reason to do so
18:24
So you are complaining that I’m pointing out too many flaws in your arguments
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:24 PM
the point is, make an argument premised on the effect of the proposed changes, not on whether or not there is some grand conspiracy of self interest
18:25
if the proposal doesn't account for a conflict of interest, then suggest a counter measure.
18:25
whether the author or anyone else stands to benefit is separate and distinct from whether or not the changes are objectively an improvement
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You were the one that brought up the conspiracy that people don’t vote i mirrored your exampled.
18:25
My countermeasure is to exclude hotspot numbers I’ve stated it over and over
18:25
Do the rest just leave that part out
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greenz
If you show or even just tell me your average across your fleet then that would confirm or dismiss that motive
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:26 PM
I told you. I have 5
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It doesn’t motivate what the network needs. Sound like a hip vosk wrote for bobcat
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greenz
My countermeasure is to exclude hotspot numbers I’ve stated it over and over
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:26 PM
yeah....leave out the entire base utility of the network. 👍
18:26
lol
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We don’t need to encourage people to just buy hotspots
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:26 PM
And they earn over average (except for one that can't help it no matter how much work is done)
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Rewards do that as a byproduct for good coverage
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greenz
The whale example was an example of an assumption like the one I had replied to (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/12/2022 6:27 PM
I like you man, truly. And your dog. It's awesome that we can have great conversations and debate without hurtful words and hard feelings. But we are on opposite sides here 😊 Respectfully
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
And they earn over average (except for one that can't help it no matter how much work is done)
Aka outlier/ exception
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greenz
Aka outlier/ exception
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:30 PM
Wrong. You think 20% of a small sample size is an outlier? lol
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Should we also give votes to those that are Still waiting for hotspots ?
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18:30
Stuff happens
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:31 PM
lets remove pure holders from the network then lets remove hotspots
18:31
which one can exist without the other
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greenz
Should we also give votes to those that are Still waiting for hotspots ?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/12/2022 6:31 PM
You shouldn't manage to the exception
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
You shouldn't manage to the exception
Oh I’m so glad you said that Jeff that’s my pointman that’s why I replied that. Somehow you find yourself agreeing with me without realizing it
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Wrong. You think 20% of a small sample size is an outlier? lol
Of a anecdotal sample lol?! Then you should consider my sample of 0 out 22
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:34 PM
the flaw with your logic is that, as an example, taking USD and buying HNT contributed nothing to the network in terms of utility. if there were a way to isolate HNT that originated from hotspots providing coverage, or validators' staking rewards, that would be one thing.
18:35
nobody seems to recognize though that there's a fundamental debate going on here between PoS and PoW
18:35
if we're saying that HNT is a vote, then we're voting by PoS. Not PoW. (roughly)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
the flaw with your logic is that, as an example, taking USD and buying HNT contributed nothing to the network in terms of utility. if there were a way to isolate HNT that originated from hotspots providing coverage, or validators' staking rewards, that would be one thing.
Well we 100% disagree then because there’s no way I would say that capital does not contribute to the value of the network. That same capitol drive the price up of the token and incentivize people to buy hotspots in the first place
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greenz
Of a anecdotal sample lol?! Then you should consider my sample of 0 out 22
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:36 PM
You once again missed the point.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
You once again missed the point.
Which was ?
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greenz
Which was ?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:38 PM
That you're gaslighting
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That you're gaslighting
Cringe
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That you're gaslighting
If you can’t defend your ideas man you don’t need to comment (edited)
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greenz
Oh I’m so glad you said that Jeff that’s my pointman that’s why I replied that. Somehow you find yourself agreeing with me without realizing it
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/12/2022 6:40 PM
I have tried to understand what you are saying here. I have failed. I can't, for the life of me, see how this makes your point. I'm too undereducated to debate here. I often have to read posts multiple times before the light comes on.
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greenz
Well we 100% disagree then because there’s no way I would say that capital does not contribute to the value of the network. That same capitol drive the price up of the token and incentivize people to buy hotspots in the first place
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:40 PM
if you're buying based on price and price alone then you're not who the network was intended for tbh
18:40
network was designed for low cost / low energy data transfer
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
if you're buying based on price and price alone then you're not who the network was intended for tbh
Hence “ anti flash vote “ is a good idea
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greenz
Cringe
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:41 PM
"cringe" is repeatedly reacting with clowns
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
if you're buying based on price and price alone then you're not who the network was intended for tbh
This doesn’t relate to hotspot Count
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:41 PM
why don't we stick to making sound rebuttals.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
"cringe" is repeatedly reacting with clowns
I’m not the one accusing of gaslighting and when i replied cringe I was literally quoting elons previous comments
18:42
Seems like you guys can dish it out but can’t take it
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:43 PM
I literally cannot even follow your argument anymore tbh
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greenz
If you can’t defend your ideas man you don’t need to comment (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:43 PM
man, you've literally spoke against your own earlier statements.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:43 PM
why dont you start from the top
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Nor can I follow your logic outside of your obvious motives
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
why dont you start from the top
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:43 PM
☝
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
man, you've literally spoke against your own earlier statements.
Gaslighting
18:44
?
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greenz
Hence “ anti flash vote “ is a good idea
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:44 PM
Yes, we agree on that 🙂
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Hey we’re just gonna go around in circles no point in arguing about how we disagree that one hotspot should get one vote
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greenz
Seems like you guys can dish it out but can’t take it
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/12/2022 6:45 PM
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Unless you guys have something new to say
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:45 PM
I said why dont you start from the top like 4 times now
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I mean I’m sure I’m not the first person to point out that you guys are not very good at this PR stuff
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:45 PM
would you like to?
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It’s your hip bro I told you everything I had to I told you what a horrible idea to include hotspots what else do you need to know (edited)
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greenz
I mean I’m sure I’m not the first person to point out that you guys are not very good at this PR stuff
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:46 PM
in other words let's put a moratorium on the ad hominem and restate your suggestion from the beginning
18:46
..productive conversation.
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Where did ad hominem start
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greenz
I mean I’m sure I’m not the first person to point out that you guys are not very good at this PR stuff
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:46 PM
here
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When Elon replied cringe ?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:46 PM
clown reactions
18:46
"cringe"
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When you say im gaslighting?
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:47 PM
>making vague unfounded strawmen/non sequitur claims about whether or not someone owns hotspots and has an ulterior motive
18:47
attack the argument/proposal not the people arguing it.
18:47
just...relax.
18:47
take a deep breath
18:47
and lets start from the beginning
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I have tried to understand what you are saying here. I have failed. I can't, for the life of me, see how this makes your point. I'm too undereducated to debate here. I often have to read posts multiple times before the light comes on.
My sarcastic reply was to point out that the hip manages the exceptions that are hotspots that don’t earn hnt despite providing good coverage
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
man, you've literally spoke against your own earlier statements.
Where
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:49 PM
dude come onnnnnn
18:49
can we proceed?
18:49
forget all that shit
18:49
just start from a clean slate
18:50
summarize your suggestion again please
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
>making vague unfounded strawmen/non sequitur claims about whether or not someone owns hotspots and has an ulterior motive
It is relevant
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 6:51 PM
when you're ready to get back to discussing the HIP lmk 👍
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Let me know when you update it 😉
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greenz
My sarcastic reply was to point out that the hip manages the exceptions that are hotspots that don’t earn hnt despite providing good coverage
I so disagree. I have 41 hotspots. 30 of them are quite good. The rest, except two, are above average. I am very good at placement and installing. The two that are shitty are either I didn't do the install (the host did) and a location I didn't want to do (but a friend begged for it). My personal hotspot is in the top 2000 hotspots on a regular basis (and without cheating). I split my above average earnings 50/50 with my hosts. I split 80% of the rest with my investors. I stake every token at Helium Rising; I have more than the average hotspot owner there. I have convinced most of my hosts and investors to stake their tokens at Helium Rising. I usually get between 20 and 60 votes depending on which part of the month the vote occurs. My voting power does not equal my contribution to this project. I am literally doing nearly everything right when it comes to a hotspot install. No voting power; which in my mind means something is wrong. Most of my hosts get nearly zero votes because they have staked their tokens. Three of my four investors have staked all of their tokens at Helium Rising; no votes for them. There is a problem with the current model. (edited)
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19:12
The HNT weighting is definitely not a proxy for value-add for the 40 people under my control. (edited)
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Hmm ok help me understand something’s. So staked hnt doesn’t get any voting rights?
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19:30
@KeithR
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greenz
Hmm ok help me understand something’s. So staked hnt doesn’t get any voting rights?
Not if you are part of a pool. If we had delegated staking then it would be included in my calculation of HNT.
19:32
That is part of my problem, yes. But the value-add I provide to the network is still not represented accurately because my hosts gets their part and my investors get their part.
19:33
When it comes to voting, my contribution is very under represented. This model attempts to give folks like me their due representation.
19:35
I do not believe that the implementation of this model is that expensive. It shouldn't be too much to add to the blockchain. The interface to the app isn't that hard. And the ever so slight change I am advocating in the voting process shouldn't cost much either. But the benefit of a decentralized declaration of what "we", as a group, value for the network is priceless (sorry, I couldn't resist). (edited)
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19:36
[after editing the above; the number of times I leave off the "not" or the "n't" from a contraction is remarkable. I am quite consistent about losing them between the brain and the keyboard!] (edited)
19:38
This is my intention with helping with the evolution of this HIP... "a decentralized declaration of what "we", as a group, value for the network"
19:39
and modifying the voting power appropriately as a result. (edited)
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KeithR
Not if you are part of a pool. If we had delegated staking then it would be included in my calculation of HNT.
Does the pool get a vote? Can that wallet cast a vote ? (edited)
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greenz
Does the pool get a vote? Can that wallet cast a vote ? (edited)
Arguably they could. Helium Rising did the right thing and let all the members vote on how to proceed. It was determined that even with a super-majority voting requirement too many people would have their interests undermined. (edited)
19:41
And that would not be fair.
19:42
Delegated staking would solve this problem.
19:45
Please let it be clear, I understand the logic of HNT weighting being a proxy for all the good things for the network. I get it. It is just that it is lazy and uninteresting. Truly letting every wallet indicate their declarations of what is important for this project embodies decentralization in my opinion. (edited)
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KeithR
Arguably they could. Helium Rising did the right thing and let all the members vote on how to proceed. It was determined that even with a super-majority voting requirement too many people would have their interests undermined. (edited)
Well that’s what I figured. That’s a problem that needs to be solved for in the staking pool. It can alternatively be solved by once again ignoring hotspot count and allowing the wallets to cast multiple votes designated with portions of the wallets holdings. Are those examples of delegated staking? Can you explain to me what that term means
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greenz
Well that’s what I figured. That’s a problem that needs to be solved for in the staking pool. It can alternatively be solved by once again ignoring hotspot count and allowing the wallets to cast multiple votes designated with portions of the wallets holdings. Are those examples of delegated staking? Can you explain to me what that term means
No they would have to move all of the HNT around each time there is a vote so as to equal the yes and no votes. Which you can't do given the 5 month cool down. Delegated staking is where the tokens stay in my wallet and I get to indicate to which pool I want my tokens staked. Same rules apply to the delegation.
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KeithR
No they would have to move all of the HNT around each time there is a vote so as to equal the yes and no votes. Which you can't do given the 5 month cool down. Delegated staking is where the tokens stay in my wallet and I get to indicate to which pool I want my tokens staked. Same rules apply to the delegation.
Well why can’t we just make a hip that allows for that?
19:48
One wallet can cast several votes designated by percentage
19:49
As stupid as it sounds one wallet should be able to vote for yes and no 50/50
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greenz
Well why can’t we just make a hip that allows for that?
I think delegated staking is already on the road map.
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19:53
However, that only represents 10% of my contribution to the success of the network and this project. (edited)
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Delegated staking solves that then. I like it
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greenz
As stupid as it sounds one wallet should be able to vote for yes and no 50/50
We tried to cover this but concluded we couldn't come up with any feasible scenario where someone would vote both ways.
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KeithR
We tried to cover this but concluded we couldn't come up with any feasible scenario where someone would vote both ways.
Well the scenario is the staking pool would have a 50/50 split vote right?
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KeithR
However, that only represents 10% of my contribution to the success of the network and this project. (edited)
And we haven't even begun to count my contributions to the community. If there was a Discord score for engagement and helpfulness, I would be arguing to add it as an entity. 🙂
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And the pool rep would vote in that way
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KeithR
And we haven't even begun to count my contributions to the community. If there was a Discord score for engagement and helpfulness, I would be arguing to add it as an entity. 🙂
That’s volunteer work. Karma will pay you for that
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greenz
And the pool rep would vote in that way
The pool wouldn't have any tokens with which to vote. The tokens stay in my wallet. The delegation just allows them to do their work and to correctly allocate the rewards.
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KeithR
The pool wouldn't have any tokens with which to vote. The tokens stay in my wallet. The delegation just allows them to do their work and to correctly allocate the rewards.
Yeah I was talking alternatively to designated staking. Either one works for me (edited)
19:56
Whichever is easier to implement. Same outcome
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greenz
That’s volunteer work. Karma will pay you for that
Oh boy. Wrong person to mention karma...I have strong feelings against the idea. If only there was a transactional system with a treasury that stored points for good deeds...
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greenz
Yeah I was talking alternatively to designated staking. Either one works for me (edited)
Just to correct the lingo so in case you bring it up in other places; it is Delegated Proof of Stake (DPoS). Here is a good primer from Gemini https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/proof-of-stake-delegated-pos-dpos#section-delegated-proof-of-stake
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KeithR
I so disagree. I have 41 hotspots. 30 of them are quite good. The rest, except two, are above average. I am very good at placement and installing. The two that are shitty are either I didn't do the install (the host did) and a location I didn't want to do (but a friend begged for it). My personal hotspot is in the top 2000 hotspots on a regular basis (and without cheating). I split my above average earnings 50/50 with my hosts. I split 80% of the rest with my investors. I stake every token at Helium Rising; I have more than the average hotspot owner there. I have convinced most of my hosts and investors to stake their tokens at Helium Rising. I usually get between 20 and 60 votes depending on which part of the month the vote occurs. My voting power does not equal my contribution to this project. I am literally doing nearly everything right when it comes to a hotspot install. No voting power; which in my mind means something is wrong. Most of my hosts get nearly zero votes because they have staked their tokens. Three of my four investors have staked all of their tokens at Helium Rising; no votes for them. There is a problem with the current model. (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 8:19 PM
@Ross make sure you thank @KeithR for all the referrals... lol.
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20:21
interesting point @KeithR -- hadn't considered the obvious tbh that once you stake to a validator you wouldn't be able to vote the full weight of your HNT under the current system since it's all locked up in said validator.
20:21
so in theory someone with 10K HNT could have less a vote than someone with 10 if all their HNT was staked.... 🤔
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KeithR
Not if you are part of a pool. If we had delegated staking then it would be included in my calculation of HNT.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 8:22 PM
I don't think it does even if you're running your own validator. HNT is staked and locked, no longer in the wallet itself afaik
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KeithR
That is part of my problem, yes. But the value-add I provide to the network is still not represented accurately because my hosts gets their part and my investors get their part.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 8:25 PM
same here tbh. people will call fleet operator businesses "whales / big money" etc but the reality is 80% of the earnings go to hosts and hotspot owners / "investors". (fwiw there are some fleets that offer considerably less but the vast majority of us seem to be doing +/- 50/50 territory) feels pretty 💩 to be wrapped up in "big money whale fat cats" criticisms when you're making margins. It's not like we own 100% of every single hotspot's income. (edited)
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KeithR
Delegated staking would solve this problem.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/12/2022 8:30 PM
I've been saying this since before the validator HIP so 🙌 ICON is such a great model it combines staking and voting so chef kiss 💋 👌 (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I don't think it does even if you're running your own validator. HNT is staked and locked, no longer in the wallet itself afaik
If you stake your own validator, it shows up in the app. It is the third icon I believe on wallet tab (the one like a cloud).
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
so in theory someone with 10K HNT could have less a vote than someone with 10 if all their HNT was staked.... 🤔
As it stands now, 10,000 HNT in a pool does not count. 10,000 in your own validator does count. At least that is how I understand it. Yes, the pool's wallet can vote those HNT but that does not represent the owners of the stake. (edited)
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KeithR
If you stake your own validator, it shows up in the app. It is the third icon I believe on wallet tab (the one like a cloud).
Staking a validator is not supported through the Helium mobile app and actually wont show up in your wallet there. What you can do is under the validator tab, favorite your own and any other val nodes you want to follow. To stake the 10k you have to use a hardware wallet, like Ledger. When I vote with my Ledger it's through a CLI command prompt on my laptop that interacts with the Ledger. The full weight of the 10k stake counts towards a vote.
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So apparently the icon is not working as described. Thank you for the clarification. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
same here tbh. people will call fleet operator businesses "whales / big money" etc but the reality is 80% of the earnings go to hosts and hotspot owners / "investors". (fwiw there are some fleets that offer considerably less but the vast majority of us seem to be doing +/- 50/50 territory) feels pretty 💩 to be wrapped up in "big money whale fat cats" criticisms when you're making margins. It's not like we own 100% of every single hotspot's income. (edited)
The distribution of HNT is proportional to your individual input to the network. You split your piece of the pie with your investors and hosts. those who invest and host themselves don’t have that expense or aid, or ability to scale. now want more voting power bc you “feel” you don’t have enough. Only reason it wouldn’t be enough is either because you didn’t hold or bc your contribution to the network is overestimated. You mention your margins, well that’s on you. You chose to take a risk and have already been rewarded for it. If anything this shows that fleets don’t need to be incentivized and that it’s more efficient and “decentralized” if we shifted to only host owned hotspots. I would think that you would agree to this seeing as you don’t see the value that capital brings to the network and that holders shouldn’t get representation. Incentivizing people to buy hotspots is no longer needed. We have enough saturation ,coverage and hotspots to redistribute. We should only incentivize good coverage (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
same here tbh. people will call fleet operator businesses "whales / big money" etc but the reality is 80% of the earnings go to hosts and hotspot owners / "investors". (fwiw there are some fleets that offer considerably less but the vast majority of us seem to be doing +/- 50/50 territory) feels pretty 💩 to be wrapped up in "big money whale fat cats" criticisms when you're making margins. It's not like we own 100% of every single hotspot's income. (edited)
Yes you don’t own 100% of each hotspots income because it doesn’t correspond to you. Seems you’re stuck on this. You feel entitled to 100% of the voting right when you only own and earn a fraction of that income and voting power. If you wanted to keep 100% voting right you would have to pay your hosts in fiat and pay for it out of your pocket vs paying them with the income generated. (edited)
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Factoring in hotpot count only favors the owner and not the host. I thought you were for giving voting power for efforts not for capital provided. You owning the hotspots and being factored is rewarding you for your capital and not your efforts. (Efforts are rewarded through hnt )
07:27
It actually undermines the host voting power
07:28
If you want to balance the power of the voting groups this isn’t the solution.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/13/2022 7:35 AM
I am trying to learn as much about this project as possible and want to help move the project forward in the right direction as much as I can, so forgive the following extreme situation. But I would like and answer. It appears to me we are currently under a King/Lord-Peasant voting system. What currently prevents the Kings and Lords from voting together and installing a 10% earnings tax on all Peasants (hotspots) to be divided umongst the Kings and Lords? The Peasants are a large part of keeping the kingdom flowing, economically, and are receiving a small portion of the rewards for their efforts, but the kingdom would cease to exist, if not for the work of the Peasants. Can the Peasants not have a say in where the Kingdom's future is headed? Can this project not have a more advanced governance than Medieval times? I told you this was going to be extreme. Lol (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I am trying to learn as much about this project as possible and want to help move the project forward in the right direction as much as I can, so forgive the following extreme situation. But I would like and answer. It appears to me we are currently under a King/Lord-Peasant voting system. What currently prevents the Kings and Lords from voting together and installing a 10% earnings tax on all Peasants (hotspots) to be divided umongst the Kings and Lords? The Peasants are a large part of keeping the kingdom flowing, economically, and are receiving a small portion of the rewards for their efforts, but the kingdom would cease to exist, if not for the work of the Peasants. Can the Peasants not have a say in where the Kingdom's future is headed? Can this project not have a more advanced governance than Medieval times? I told you this was going to be extreme. Lol (edited)
heratic, off with his head.
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@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 I get why you say that Jeff. This hip has a very populist tone that implies that. However in reality the 2 forces are those with the foresight that know if the networks succeeds we all succeed and those who don’t have foresight and are focused on short term gains and breaking even above all. Those with more to lose (kings) aren’t going to vote against the networks best interest. They will vote for reliability and to raise price action long term. If they were to vote against the miners and networks interest they would also suffer. Now those who just owns a hotspot and don’t currently have enough hnt to have significant voting power would more likely vote in their self interest because the two (networks and hotspots owners ) interest aren’t as aligned. We do need to balance the voting groups but hotspot count doesn’t do that (edited)
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Fizzy
heratic, off with his head.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/13/2022 7:43 AM
They call me Wallace, William Wallace. Lol
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greenz
@Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 I get why you say that Jeff. This hip has a very populist tone that implies that. However in reality the 2 forces are those with the foresight that know if the networks succeeds we all succeed and those who don’t have foresight and are focused on short term gains and breaking even above all. Those with more to lose (kings) aren’t going to vote against the networks best interest. They will vote for reliability and to raise price action long term. If they were to vote against the miners and networks interest they would also suffer. Now those who just owns a hotspot and don’t currently have enough hnt to have significant voting power would more likely vote in their self interest because the two (networks and hotspots owners ) interest aren’t as aligned. We do need to balance the voting groups but hotspot count doesn’t do that (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/13/2022 7:45 AM
We do need to balance the voting groups but hotspot count doesn’t do that let's get off this point, as it's been stated plenty of times now that this isn't what's happening.
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Hotspot count isn’t happening?
07:46
What’s not happening?
07:50
Strange chris can comment non useful info but not answer direct questions (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/13/2022 7:52 AM
So, what I am seeing here, is we agree there needs to be more balance in the voting. Some feel it will be horrible for the network if the voting balance stays as is, and others feel if more power was given to the masses, the network would fall from greed from the unintelligent, non-caring Hotspot owner that jumped in to make a buck. I'm curious... How many of the Kings/Lords were once a Peasant in this project? (edited)
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I think we all can agree to more balanced groups. The main issue everyone that is opposed seems to have is that they don’t see factoring hotspot ownership without good coverage as a way to balance it out. This undermines hosts efforts and rewards a non crucial behavior. (edited)
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greenz
I think we all can agree to more balanced groups. The main issue everyone that is opposed seems to have is that they don’t see factoring hotspot ownership without good coverage as a way to balance it out. This undermines hosts efforts and rewards a non crucial behavior. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/13/2022 7:57 AM
I had mentioned this before, maybe worth bringing up again... What if voting power for Hotspot owners was based on Transmit Scale? Those that don't care enough to move their Hotspot to an area that will benefit the network get a lighted weighted vote (if they cared enough to vote) and those actively deploying hotspots in crucial network advantage areas would receive a more heavily weighted vote. I know my ignorance. I am aware of my faults. But I understand common sense.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I had mentioned this before, maybe worth bringing up again... What if voting power for Hotspot owners was based on Transmit Scale? Those that don't care enough to move their Hotspot to an area that will benefit the network get a lighted weighted vote (if they cared enough to vote) and those actively deploying hotspots in crucial network advantage areas would receive a more heavily weighted vote. I know my ignorance. I am aware of my faults. But I understand common sense.
See the things is that ts doesn’t equate to good coverage. You can have an indoor miner in a great TS. Hnt earnings factor in ts and are a better indicator.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I had mentioned this before, maybe worth bringing up again... What if voting power for Hotspot owners was based on Transmit Scale? Those that don't care enough to move their Hotspot to an area that will benefit the network get a lighted weighted vote (if they cared enough to vote) and those actively deploying hotspots in crucial network advantage areas would receive a more heavily weighted vote. I know my ignorance. I am aware of my faults. But I understand common sense.
I think this is bad idea. You as an individual can not control others. Just tell me where your hotspot is, and I will assert 10 more hotspots in that hex so I can sabotage your voting power. 🙂
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Fizzy
I think this is bad idea. You as an individual can not control others. Just tell me where your hotspot is, and I will assert 10 more hotspots in that hex so I can sabotage your voting power. 🙂
Or you will chase (spoof)empty hexes for more voting power. Too easy to manipulate (edited)
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Fizzy
I think this is bad idea. You as an individual can not control others. Just tell me where your hotspot is, and I will assert 10 more hotspots in that hex so I can sabotage your voting power. 🙂
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/13/2022 8:01 AM
Seems like a lot of work to take away a vote. But one thing this may do is give some incentive to those that aren't helping the network and help them move to a better area. (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Seems like a lot of work to take away a vote. But one thing this may do is give some incentive to those that aren't helping the network and help them move to a better area. (edited)
Are hnt rewards not the main incentive? Wouldn’t they have improved for this already ?
08:03
You think votes will convince them to improve better than hnt
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Seems like a lot of work to take away a vote. But one thing this may do is give some incentive to those that aren't helping the network and help them move to a better area. (edited)
Well my denied hotspots will be useful for something 🙂 (afaik, they still exist for transmit scale)
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They could just improve for more earnings and get more vote by simply doing that.
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greenz
See the things is that ts doesn’t equate to good coverage. You can have an indoor miner in a great TS. Hnt earnings factor in ts and are a better indicator.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/13/2022 8:05 AM
That would be managing to the exception. Lol
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
That would be managing to the exception. Lol
Hnt rewards are not structured around the exceptions. Poor transmit scores are hardly rare or an exception. Hnt already incentivizes what you had implied. Indoor miners , low earnings miners ‘ and bad deployments aren’t an exception. (edited)
08:09
If anything good deployments are.
08:09
All beside the point.
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greenz
Hnt rewards are not structured around the exceptions. Poor transmit scores are hardly rare or an exception. Hnt already incentivizes what you had implied. Indoor miners , low earnings miners ‘ and bad deployments aren’t an exception. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/13/2022 8:10 AM
I was referring to your high Transmit Scale indoors not earning HNT example.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I was referring to your high Transmit Scale indoors not earning HNT example.
Those are unrelated
08:11
Yes you will get better earnings all other things constant but TS alone means nothing
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/13/2022 8:11 AM
Anyways, I have contributed my 2 cents for now (or 0.5 HNT lol) Back later
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Anyways, I have contributed my 2 cents for now (or 0.5 HNT lol) Back later
Same here Jeff. Have a good day brother.
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greenz
Yes you don’t own 100% of each hotspots income because it doesn’t correspond to you. Seems you’re stuck on this. You feel entitled to 100% of the voting right when you only own and earn a fraction of that income and voting power. If you wanted to keep 100% voting right you would have to pay your hosts in fiat and pay for it out of your pocket vs paying them with the income generated. (edited)
I absolutely own the hotspots. The host is being paid for supplying a location by getting 50% of the earnings; they pay the income tax on it. My customers buy a mining-as-a-service from me; it costs the four of them 25% of the tranche (the group of hotspots I am about to install) and they get 10% of the earnings each. I as the owner of the hotspot keep the 10% and provide the service of management, installation, maintenance, and time in with the community. While I believe HNT speculators and holders are important to the project, so am I. I, and my fellow hotspot owners, are just as important. However, we do not have the HNT to show for it and thus are being deprived of appropriate voting power.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I am trying to learn as much about this project as possible and want to help move the project forward in the right direction as much as I can, so forgive the following extreme situation. But I would like and answer. It appears to me we are currently under a King/Lord-Peasant voting system. What currently prevents the Kings and Lords from voting together and installing a 10% earnings tax on all Peasants (hotspots) to be divided umongst the Kings and Lords? The Peasants are a large part of keeping the kingdom flowing, economically, and are receiving a small portion of the rewards for their efforts, but the kingdom would cease to exist, if not for the work of the Peasants. Can the Peasants not have a say in where the Kingdom's future is headed? Can this project not have a more advanced governance than Medieval times? I told you this was going to be extreme. Lol (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/13/2022 11:16 AM
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/13/2022 12:16 PM
HIP 60 : Governance by Strange Women Lying in Ponds Distributing Swords
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@KeithR from what you described I believe you should have about 1/5 vote per each of your miners compared to a person that owns a miner and host it at their own home. You aren’t doing all that work nor are you taking on all the risk. You could say zero risk or investment other than your time. . So giving you all the voting credit doesn’t even make sense. Your example further demonstrates how hnt is a better proxy for network value add than factoring in hotspot to vote weight (edited)
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greenz
@KeithR from what you described I believe you should have about 1/5 vote per each of your miners compared to a person that owns a miner and host it at their own home. You aren’t doing all that work nor are you taking on all the risk. You could say zero risk or investment other than your time. . So giving you all the voting credit doesn’t even make sense. Your example further demonstrates how hnt is a better proxy for network value add than factoring in hotspot to vote weight (edited)
No, no, no. If vote per hotspot happens, there would be no way to even implement your suggestion to have KeithR get 1/5 of a hotspot’s entity vote. Fleet owners all model their business and payouts differently. It’s silly to think you can control voting power based on what the owner’s investment/payout is. How would you even know the percent? For example, maybe I pay 15-25% profit sharing, take on all the costs/risk, and with my fleet I go out and do an upgraded rooftop install on each one. Following your comment, I should get more vote per hotspot than KeithR because of my investment/payout %. I don't think so. There's people like hnt.Chris or !Max who run fleets more than ten/twenty times my size. They shouldn't get less vote per hotspot, because it's THEM who built up their fleet. Either by convincing investors or coming up with the capital on their own. All of these hosts and investors we work with would have never got into Helium if it wasn’t for us. And I don’t know about the other guys fleets, but all the hosts I work with don't care about voting anyway. They don't have the same skin in the game as we do. If they have a lot of HNT, they can vote by HNT weight category. We work hard building up the network. Don't discredit our work. It's insulting. (edited)
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I think this is a very true statement; All of these hosts and investors we work with would have never got into Helium if it wasn’t for us. Well put @Marvelous
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KeithR
I think this is a very true statement; All of these hosts and investors we work with would have never got into Helium if it wasn’t for us. Well put @Marvelous
Same could be said of the original investors who own HST. You wouldn’t have gotten into Helium if it wasn’t for them.
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Radrob
Same could be said of the original investors who own HST. You wouldn’t have gotten into Helium if it wasn’t for them.
Which is why they have voting power under the governance model being suggested.
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Marvelous
No, no, no. If vote per hotspot happens, there would be no way to even implement your suggestion to have KeithR get 1/5 of a hotspot’s entity vote. Fleet owners all model their business and payouts differently. It’s silly to think you can control voting power based on what the owner’s investment/payout is. How would you even know the percent? For example, maybe I pay 15-25% profit sharing, take on all the costs/risk, and with my fleet I go out and do an upgraded rooftop install on each one. Following your comment, I should get more vote per hotspot than KeithR because of my investment/payout %. I don't think so. There's people like hnt.Chris or !Max who run fleets more than ten/twenty times my size. They shouldn't get less vote per hotspot, because it's THEM who built up their fleet. Either by convincing investors or coming up with the capital on their own. All of these hosts and investors we work with would have never got into Helium if it wasn’t for us. And I don’t know about the other guys fleets, but all the hosts I work with don't care about voting anyway. They don't have the same skin in the game as we do. If they have a lot of HNT, they can vote by HNT weight category. We work hard building up the network. Don't discredit our work. It's insulting. (edited)
“No, no, no. If vote per hotspot happens, there would be no way to even implement your suggestion to have KeithR get 1/5 of a regular hotspot’s vote. “ To start off, I don’t think we should have one vote per hotspot and I also didn’t suggest anything to be implemented. The current hnt weighted vote already works like that.
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08:11
“Fleet owners all model their business and payouts differently. It’s silly to think you can control voting power based on what the owner’s investment/payout is. How would you even know the percent? For example, maybe I pay 15-25% profit sharing, take on all the costs/risk, and with my fleet I go out and do an upgraded rooftop install on each one” Again not suggesting to control voting power or any implementations. Hnt weight even represents the contributions and Interest of those who aren’t hotspot owners. It’s only logical that the way hnt is divided in a partnership is based on their level of contribution to the success of the hotspot. On the miners I bought and host i deserve 100% the hnt and vote right, on the ones where someone host for me they deserve the same voting rights relative to me as the hnt percentage I give them. On the ones where I host for others each persons contributions are reflected in the hnt split. If you install on a roof you could offer a lower host fee, if location is great host fee may want and deserve more. All the variables for contributions can be accounted for through hnt. (edited)
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“We work hard building up the network. Don't discredit our work. It's insulting.” Who do you think I am? Some wealthy speculator whale that buys up hnt but gets on discord to make sure I can control the vote ? Others and I are all working hard. I run a small fleet of a dozen hotspots that I paid around $1000 each for and an additional dozen I host for others. I and those I host for made that investment/contributed and took on that risk. - this should and is considered in the terms of any rev share agreement. One is at my house the rest are hosted by others. I sought hosts that would see value in helium beyond monthly earnings. Most took a percentage in hnt and are holding that hnt. I get 100% of the ones I own and host if I didn’t buy them myself logically I get less. If I dont host it also get less. In Keith’s case he didn’t pay for them nor hosts them his 10% split was based on his contributions in time and knowledge as part of the group. That’s why he gets less. In fact I said 1/5 but it’s really 1/10th as per the term of his agreement. Providing the location is an important contribution that deserves to either be rewarded in hnt or paid to host in fiat. If the host accepts and holds hnt they are assuming more risk. Holding contributes by showing faith in the network and solidifying token price. This contribution also needs to be rewarded with voting rights and it is. If the host in uninterested in helium and is only interested in a host fee then that would be reflected by them being paid in fiat. This would designate them as a service to owner and as an expense and not a contributor to the network. They don’t show faith or interest don’t hold hnt and therefore get no vote. Anyone who holds hnt literally has interest in the network and should be able to vote. So saying someone has hnt but doesn’t care to vote is not a valid argument. (edited)
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greenz
“We work hard building up the network. Don't discredit our work. It's insulting.” Who do you think I am? Some wealthy speculator whale that buys up hnt but gets on discord to make sure I can control the vote ? Others and I are all working hard. I run a small fleet of a dozen hotspots that I paid around $1000 each for and an additional dozen I host for others. I and those I host for made that investment/contributed and took on that risk. - this should and is considered in the terms of any rev share agreement. One is at my house the rest are hosted by others. I sought hosts that would see value in helium beyond monthly earnings. Most took a percentage in hnt and are holding that hnt. I get 100% of the ones I own and host if I didn’t buy them myself logically I get less. If I dont host it also get less. In Keith’s case he didn’t pay for them nor hosts them his 10% split was based on his contributions in time and knowledge as part of the group. That’s why he gets less. In fact I said 1/5 but it’s really 1/10th as per the term of his agreement. Providing the location is an important contribution that deserves to either be rewarded in hnt or paid to host in fiat. If the host accepts and holds hnt they are assuming more risk. Holding contributes by showing faith in the network and solidifying token price. This contribution also needs to be rewarded with voting rights and it is. If the host in uninterested in helium and is only interested in a host fee then that would be reflected by them being paid in fiat. This would designate them as a service to owner and as an expense and not a contributor to the network. They don’t show faith or interest don’t hold hnt and therefore get no vote. Anyone who holds hnt literally has interest in the network and should be able to vote. So saying someone has hnt but doesn’t care to vote is not a valid argument. (edited)
I see. So you are AGAINST entity weighted vote that includes Hotspots as an entity and FOR keeping it as some form of HNT weighted vote only. I was under the impression by your comments that you believe fleet owners should have less vote per hotspot if and when a hotspot entity weighted vote system happens. Guess I was wrong. (edited)
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+120.83 dBm 05/14/2022 2:34 PM
"some attackers have been able to carry out flash loan attacks by hijacking DeFi voting processes. Most recently, Beanstalk DeFi incurred a $182 million loss after an attacker took advantage of a shortcoming in its governance system. The Beanstalk development team had included a governance mechanism that allowed participants to vote for platform changes as a core functionality. This setup is popular in the DeFi industry because it upholds democracy. Voting rights on the platform were set to be proportional to the value of native tokens held. An analysis of the breach revealed that the attackers obtained a flash loan from the Aave DeFi protocol to get almost $1 billion in assets. This enabled them to get a 67% majority in the voting governance system and allowed them to unilaterally approve the transfer of assets to their address. The perpetrators made off with about $80 million in digital currencies after repaying the flash loan and related surcharges." Source: https://cointelegraph.com/news/defi-attacks-are-on-the-rise-will-the-industry-be-able-to-stem-the-tide
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/14/2022 5:45 PM
One of the greatest comedy movies of all time. At one time I had every line memorized.
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17:47
One vote for every year the voter has been alive. I would be a very heavily weighted vote.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
One vote for every year the voter has been alive. I would be a very heavily weighted vote.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/14/2022 6:43 PM
I might have ya beat on that. 😉 lol
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+120.83 dBm
"some attackers have been able to carry out flash loan attacks by hijacking DeFi voting processes. Most recently, Beanstalk DeFi incurred a $182 million loss after an attacker took advantage of a shortcoming in its governance system. The Beanstalk development team had included a governance mechanism that allowed participants to vote for platform changes as a core functionality. This setup is popular in the DeFi industry because it upholds democracy. Voting rights on the platform were set to be proportional to the value of native tokens held. An analysis of the breach revealed that the attackers obtained a flash loan from the Aave DeFi protocol to get almost $1 billion in assets. This enabled them to get a 67% majority in the voting governance system and allowed them to unilaterally approve the transfer of assets to their address. The perpetrators made off with about $80 million in digital currencies after repaying the flash loan and related surcharges." Source: https://cointelegraph.com/news/defi-attacks-are-on-the-rise-will-the-industry-be-able-to-stem-the-tide
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/14/2022 6:44 PM
Yeah, this HIP protects against those type of attacks. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
I might have ya beat on that. 😉 lol
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/14/2022 7:51 PM
Over 50?
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Over 50?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/14/2022 7:51 PM
Nope :)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/14/2022 7:51 PM
I win 👍😜
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/14/2022 7:51 PM
Fair enough. Lol
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/14/2022 7:55 PM
Had a good conversation with Max yesterday. Heard some arguable points from the opposition. I still think we need a more balanced vote. But for the first time I heard an argument that got me thinking a bit. No offense meant greeny.
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So a possible vector of attack under this model. A wallet gets a loan via wrappedHNT (I have no idea how this would work but we will assume it worked) and from the loan obtains 20 million HNT and puts it in their wallet. Then writes a script to create 500 million wallets and sets the weightings for each of these accounts to hotspots 0% validators 0% and HNT holders to 100%. Votes 'no' with the very rich wallet. The voting process summarizes all of the wallets' weights and thus concludes the group as a whole wants HNT holders to have 99% of the voting power. Our wallet with the borrowed HNT wins the vote. (edited)
23:48
I didn't intend to go after HNT holders in my example, but a flash loan doesn't really let you buy hotspots and onboard them at no costs. Nor does it allow you to purchase and hold a validator for long enough.
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So one potential way out is to require only wallets that actually submitted a vote to be the wallets that can be included for calculating the group as a whole's intended stance. This would require the large HNT holder to have distributed their HNT to a lot of wallets and leave them there until the voting power was calculated. So, the attack seems thwarted. But then that wouldn't be the WHOLE group making the decision; it would only be a SAMPLE of the group.
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Creating millions of wallets and setting the entity weights for each seems a real threat. Not that hard to do and not expensive at all. It is the same problem as holding a lot of HNT to 'buy' a vote but not expensive. Whereas holding the HNT allows you to the buy the vote, creating the millions of wallets allows you to "buy" the stance of the group as a whole. Any chance there is an official way to determine if a wallet is inactive? Is there a risk of requiring activity within the last x days in a wallet before allowing it to be considered as being in use? I suppose our owner of millions of wallets could programmatically transfer in a token and transfer it out after a short time to falsify that activity. It does increase the costs of faking the ownership; DCs spent making the transfers.
07:54
. Thinking more about just using the wallets that actually vote in the calculus for determining the entity weights. While that is only a sample of the group, it would be the population of the voting wallets. Given that the voting wallets are deciding the vote, since participation is essentially required for voting, is it really an issue to have those same wallets represent the entity weights for the group as a whole?
08:00
I am feeling like it is a fair requirement. You have to vote for your entity weights to count. You can set your entity weights at any time, they can be managed or changed at any time. But for them to count, you have to vote. The cost of voting seems a big enough burden to trust a wallet in this scenario. I am off to install a hotspot, talk amongst yourselves. 🙂
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On the one hotspot one vote topic. How about one extra vote is earned every six months since the hotspot was onboarded? This would give operators with more experience within the network more power as they are likely to understand it better? Just a thought!
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koditech
On the one hotspot one vote topic. How about one extra vote is earned every six months since the hotspot was onboarded? This would give operators with more experience within the network more power as they are likely to understand it better? Just a thought!
But a well-installed hotspot installed today is not worth less than a poorly installed hotspot installed a year ago. Each is an installed hotspot that should gain voting power as a result. Being well-installed versus poorly-installed earns a greater amount of HNT; and an increase in voting power as a result as well (under this model).
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KeithR
But a well-installed hotspot installed today is not worth less than a poorly installed hotspot installed a year ago. Each is an installed hotspot that should gain voting power as a result. Being well-installed versus poorly-installed earns a greater amount of HNT; and an increase in voting power as a result as well (under this model).
true!
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Max - Just Max 05/17/2022 7:27 AM
Has anyone read the veHNT portion of HIP-51? If you’re willing to lock up your HNT for 4 years, you can get 100x the voting power of someone who locks it up for 6 months.
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Max - Just Max
Has anyone read the veHNT portion of HIP-51? If you’re willing to lock up your HNT for 4 years, you can get 100x the voting power of someone who locks it up for 6 months.
4 years is a bit long. Might miss a bull cycle. Is that the point? why not 2?
07:31
Your interest would definitely be aligned with the networks success (edited)
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greenz
4 years is a bit long. Might miss a bull cycle. Is that the point? why not 2?
Max - Just Max 05/17/2022 7:31 AM
You don’t have to get 100x the voting power of you don’t want. It’s a linear relationship between lock up period and multiplier
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Oh ok so that’s the max
07:32
?
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Max - Just Max 05/17/2022 7:32 AM
Yea
07:32
But it requires a 6 month stake to get voting rights
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Max - Just Max
But it requires a 6 month stake to get voting rights
That takes care of the flash vote buy issue then.
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KeithR
But a well-installed hotspot installed today is not worth less than a poorly installed hotspot installed a year ago. Each is an installed hotspot that should gain voting power as a result. Being well-installed versus poorly-installed earns a greater amount of HNT; and an increase in voting power as a result as well (under this model).
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/18/2022 3:15 PM
apologies if you've already covered it in the backscroll, but Being well-installed versus poorly-installed earns a greater amount of HNT; and an increase in voting power as a result as well (under this model). what about two equally-performing hotspots where one was installed 1 year ago and one 6 months ago? In theory the "older" one still has more weight because it's got first mover advantage (more time to rack up HNT). But they otherwise provide the same "quality" of coverage in the present. Personally feel like time in the market shouldn't really impact the weight of your vote, necessarily. It should be equal across time. If one entity votes for the idea of "2 + 2 = 5" it doesn't make it a better / more sound idea than a "younger" entity voting for "2 + 2 = 4" simply because it's been around arbitrarily longer. (edited)
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I have to agree, the benefit of being first was more time to earn. When it comes to governance, every installed hotspot should be the same value of voting power as every other installed hotspot.
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KeithR
I have to agree, the benefit of being first was more time to earn. When it comes to governance, every installed hotspot should be the same value of voting power as every other installed hotspot.
So to clarify do you think every installed hotspot should have equal vote with or without, any consideration of present performance? (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/18/2022 6:46 PM
I think what we're going for is influence parity. Not necessarily that it's always "equal" across the board. Just that you don't have tyranny of the minority. Improvements shouldn't be biased only towards what "already works", but also give attention to the things that don't. And you need the "less performant" feedback for that.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/18/2022 7:02 PM
Currently "the few" have voting control over "the many" . As HNT gets "thinner" and more and more hotspots are deployed, it will soon be the "very few" over the "millions". It will be impossible to earn or buy a competitive piece of voting pie. This has to be addressed now, while there is any possibility.
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greenz
So to clarify do you think every installed hotspot should have equal vote with or without, any consideration of present performance? (edited)
Yes, I believe every hotspot that is live should have one vote (times the entity weighting decided by the group as a whole). I think every HNT should have one vote (times the entity weighting decided by the group as a whole). I think every HNT staked with a validator or validator pool should have one vote (times the entity weighting decided by the group as a whole).
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19:37
Performance was rewarded with HNT; which grants you more voting power within this model…unless the group as a whole says that the entity weighting should be very low.
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19:37
I want us to do what the group as a whole wants us to do. (edited)
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Max - Just Max 05/18/2022 10:22 PM
The problem with this HIP is it devalues HNT. If HNT = voting power it implies ownership then you can take cash flow and projected cash flow and come up with a value for it. If it doesn’t equal voting power then it doesn’t equal ownership, it’s just a thing that the market doesn’t fully understand. It has a higher perceived value right now due to the reduction in velocity from things like the BME and staking incentivizing people to hold but both of those mechanisms haven’t been around long enough to know for sure if they slow velocity in the long term.
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/19/2022 4:56 AM
Sorry, wrong place for this discussion. Watch this video that was done just yesterday. Good Luck https://youtu.be/qLSVMSbDiOE
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Max - Just Max
The problem with this HIP is it devalues HNT. If HNT = voting power it implies ownership then you can take cash flow and projected cash flow and come up with a value for it. If it doesn’t equal voting power then it doesn’t equal ownership, it’s just a thing that the market doesn’t fully understand. It has a higher perceived value right now due to the reduction in velocity from things like the BME and staking incentivizing people to hold but both of those mechanisms haven’t been around long enough to know for sure if they slow velocity in the long term.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/19/2022 5:54 AM
A concern I have is if we stay on our current path, the very same people making the "rules" now, at 800k hotspots, will be the same people making the rules when we are millions of hotspots, world wide. As we move from a PoC incentive to a data transfer insentive in the coming years, I think it is important that, while incentives change, so too should the voting regulations. I'm am not saying those with much more voting power should lose it and be equal to Joe Schmuckatelli, that just deployed his first Hotspot. I have moved a bit in my convictions and realize the OG's should continue to have more voting power, but I am steadfast on the idea that the gap needs to be tightened so all have a more equal, at least "reachable" voice. (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
A concern I have is if we stay on our current path, the very same people making the "rules" now, at 800k hotspots, will be the same people making the rules when we are millions of hotspots, world wide. As we move from a PoC incentive to a data transfer insentive in the coming years, I think it is important that, while incentives change, so too should the voting regulations. I'm am not saying those with much more voting power should lose it and be equal to Joe Schmuckatelli, that just deployed his first Hotspot. I have moved a bit in my convictions and realize the OG's should continue to have more voting power, but I am steadfast on the idea that the gap needs to be tightened so all have a more equal, at least "reachable" voice. (edited)
Max - Just Max 05/19/2022 7:24 AM
There won’t ever be a scenario where you ever actually influence any votes and that’s not a bad thing. You do, however, have the ability to propose a HIP and let that HIP get discussed amongst the community, including Nova’s CEO. That gives you a considerably more reachable voice than having an equal share of a corporation. This thing about why should the guy who set up a hotspot in 2021 get more of a say than the guy who did it in 2022 is red herring. Both of those people have no say in the voting process. Decentralized voting is way too slow - just look at HIP-40. Sometimes you need a smaller concentration of people able to make quick decisions and take quick action. Now’s the part where someone calls me a bootlicker.
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Max - Just Max
There won’t ever be a scenario where you ever actually influence any votes and that’s not a bad thing. You do, however, have the ability to propose a HIP and let that HIP get discussed amongst the community, including Nova’s CEO. That gives you a considerably more reachable voice than having an equal share of a corporation. This thing about why should the guy who set up a hotspot in 2021 get more of a say than the guy who did it in 2022 is red herring. Both of those people have no say in the voting process. Decentralized voting is way too slow - just look at HIP-40. Sometimes you need a smaller concentration of people able to make quick decisions and take quick action. Now’s the part where someone calls me a bootlicker.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/19/2022 7:51 AM
Thanks for the response. I keep forgetting this is worldwide with different thoughts on voting power. My own feelings (and passion for the project) would like to see it really be "The People's Network" and the HIP be more than a suggestion box. I feel there are brilliant people out there that could really help. They will just have to put in a resume instead of investing in the network. If one cannot influence a vote, then why have discussion options on Discord? Why do I spend so many hours reading and learning about the project? I am here to only buy hotspots and equipment to deploy and sit back and hope "the few" have my best interests in mind when they vote on our suggestions. Now that I have a better understanding of what is expected of me, I can move on... (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Thanks for the response. I keep forgetting this is worldwide with different thoughts on voting power. My own feelings (and passion for the project) would like to see it really be "The People's Network" and the HIP be more than a suggestion box. I feel there are brilliant people out there that could really help. They will just have to put in a resume instead of investing in the network. If one cannot influence a vote, then why have discussion options on Discord? Why do I spend so many hours reading and learning about the project? I am here to only buy hotspots and equipment to deploy and sit back and hope "the few" have my best interests in mind when they vote on our suggestions. Now that I have a better understanding of what is expected of me, I can move on... (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/19/2022 8:14 AM
This small "rant" is not directed at you specifically. I respect the hell out of you and what you have been able to accomplish with the project and life. We just disagree on a few things (so far). I understand some may feel I am new, so my thoughts are based on my noobyism. Just don't discredit life experience, and with that I am no where near a noob. Lol (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
This small "rant" is not directed at you specifically. I respect the hell out of you and what you have been able to accomplish with the project and life. We just disagree on a few things (so far). I understand some may feel I am new, so my thoughts are based on my noobyism. Just don't discredit life experience, and with that I am no where near a noob. Lol (edited)
that you in the profile pic i assume?
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Keenan
that you in the profile pic i assume?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/19/2022 8:26 AM
Yes sir. My not-so-nice to people Jarhead days. Still a Marine (always), but I chose to be more level headed and get my point across with less violence.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Yes sir. My not-so-nice to people Jarhead days. Still a Marine (always), but I chose to be more level headed and get my point across with less violence.
my man. respect. 🤘
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Keenan
my man. respect. 🤘
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/19/2022 8:29 AM
Nice of you to say. There are many many more that deserve much more respect than me. But much appreciated.
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Keenan
my man. respect. 🤘
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/19/2022 8:31 AM
I watch you on the boards. You're somewhat of a peace keeper yourself 🤘👍
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hahah, in the smallest of possible ways.
08:32
but i appreciate that lol
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Thanks for the response. I keep forgetting this is worldwide with different thoughts on voting power. My own feelings (and passion for the project) would like to see it really be "The People's Network" and the HIP be more than a suggestion box. I feel there are brilliant people out there that could really help. They will just have to put in a resume instead of investing in the network. If one cannot influence a vote, then why have discussion options on Discord? Why do I spend so many hours reading and learning about the project? I am here to only buy hotspots and equipment to deploy and sit back and hope "the few" have my best interests in mind when they vote on our suggestions. Now that I have a better understanding of what is expected of me, I can move on... (edited)
Max - Just Max 05/19/2022 9:07 AM
This nice thing is if you hold your token, “the few” do have your best interest in mind. I’m just of the belief that if the goal is true decentralization, taking steps towards that goal and elevating the little guy’s voice is progressing in the right direction. Things have to change gradually over the course of decades so we have time to learn what does and doesn’t work. This is just another step in that process.
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09:11
10 years ago we would have just been Uber drivers. Now we’re Uber drivers with a direct line to the CEO and a meaningless vote. 10 years from now we can be doing something more in line with decentralized governance. (Though I still think that’s a bad idea because historically large groups are slow to act and tech companies that act slow get slaughtered)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/19/2022 9:41 AM
This reminds me of talking to my girls when they were much younger and haven't yet felt some of the pains of the world. "I know sweetie, in your beautiful mind and big heart, your idea seems like the right thing to do, but in reality, it can be a big, cold, mean, world out there. You just need to trust that daddy is looking out for you"
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
A concern I have is if we stay on our current path, the very same people making the "rules" now, at 800k hotspots, will be the same people making the rules when we are millions of hotspots, world wide. As we move from a PoC incentive to a data transfer insentive in the coming years, I think it is important that, while incentives change, so too should the voting regulations. I'm am not saying those with much more voting power should lose it and be equal to Joe Schmuckatelli, that just deployed his first Hotspot. I have moved a bit in my convictions and realize the OG's should continue to have more voting power, but I am steadfast on the idea that the gap needs to be tightened so all have a more equal, at least "reachable" voice. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/19/2022 3:56 PM
As large HNT holders and a lot of them also validators, they will still have a sizable voting voice. 🙂 (edited)
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Max - Just Max
This nice thing is if you hold your token, “the few” do have your best interest in mind. I’m just of the belief that if the goal is true decentralization, taking steps towards that goal and elevating the little guy’s voice is progressing in the right direction. Things have to change gradually over the course of decades so we have time to learn what does and doesn’t work. This is just another step in that process.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/19/2022 4:07 PM
"This nice thing is if you hold your token, “the few” do have your best interest in mind." Not true. They have their own best interest in mind. If it doesn't break things and benefits themselves, they'll do it. Sorry, not waiting 10 years. (edited)
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Max - Just Max 05/19/2022 10:13 PM
One HNT One Vote. Someone make a channel
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Max - Just Max
One HNT One Vote. Someone make a channel
!Lowdrag [UA-US-EU] 05/20/2022 12:49 PM
Face. Palm.
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Not sure of a proposal which aims to be "no worse than the present method". Wouldn't 1 wallet 1 vote do more to remove block votes?
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c_s_t
Not sure of a proposal which aims to be "no worse than the present method". Wouldn't 1 wallet 1 vote do more to remove block votes?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 05/23/2022 8:13 AM
no. anyone can create as many wallets as they want with no cost.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 8:44 AM
I am an older man with lots of life experience. I served my beloved Country and was Honorably discharged from the United States Marine Corps. I have worked a few decades in the civilian world and managed hundreds of people in a 200 million dollar company that I helped grow. I consider myself a fairly bright person with a tremendous passion for what ever I put my mind to. My religion, my family, my country, my job, and recently, this project. I just finished reading a weeks worth of debate on HIP 51. Even with all I have previously mentioned in this post, I failed to understand much of what I was reading on HIP 51. I am not saying I am incapable of understanding it, I am saying, I don't yet understand it. What this experience taught me, is even though I have a huge passion for the success of this project, I maybe should NOT have an equal, or even close to equal say in where this project is going. And if I, someone with my background, who researched tirelessly before installing my first Hotspot, with all of this passion, feels I am not the right person (right now) to vote on the direction of Helium, then most Hotspot owners, who don't share my background and passion should definitely not have an equal say in Helium's future. I do not know how a person, or if a person should be vetted before voting. I still know there are many new Hotspot owners who do fully understand how this project can move forward safely, and unfortunately, are the exception to the rule. I am reversing my stance on HIP 60. Sometimes a person's biggest strength is knowing what they don't know. (edited)
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Angry Pickle Bear 05/27/2022 10:44 AM
Unrelated sorry: HIP 51 is quite complex, the Foundation getting some educational materials out today to help simplify some of the broader topics on HIP-51
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I am an older man with lots of life experience. I served my beloved Country and was Honorably discharged from the United States Marine Corps. I have worked a few decades in the civilian world and managed hundreds of people in a 200 million dollar company that I helped grow. I consider myself a fairly bright person with a tremendous passion for what ever I put my mind to. My religion, my family, my country, my job, and recently, this project. I just finished reading a weeks worth of debate on HIP 51. Even with all I have previously mentioned in this post, I failed to understand much of what I was reading on HIP 51. I am not saying I am incapable of understanding it, I am saying, I don't yet understand it. What this experience taught me, is even though I have a huge passion for the success of this project, I maybe should NOT have an equal, or even close to equal say in where this project is going. And if I, someone with my background, who researched tirelessly before installing my first Hotspot, with all of this passion, feels I am not the right person (right now) to vote on the direction of Helium, then most Hotspot owners, who don't share my background and passion should definitely not have an equal say in Helium's future. I do not know how a person, or if a person should be vetted before voting. I still know there are many new Hotspot owners who do fully understand how this project can move forward safely, and unfortunately, are the exception to the rule. I am reversing my stance on HIP 60. Sometimes a person's biggest strength is knowing what they don't know. (edited)
But can't everything you say can be said about democracy in general? You think everyone that votes for Mitch McConnell understands the implications of their vote? Or if the Gavin Newsom voter is aware of his shenanigans? No they aint. But even more concerning to me is the ultra rich individual that cares not the implications of his vote on the rest of the world and has the ability to throw millions of dollars to have his speech magnified over and above mine or yours. This is not fair. The distribution of voters that don't understand, kind of understand, understand, and totally get it are probably similar for each side of a decision. In the case of democracy they should all vote if they desire and their votes should all count the same. In the case of a decentralized project, merit and effort and contribution have sway. More effort should get matched with increased voting power. More contribution should get matched with increased voting power. And this HIP is arguing that all of those entities should be allowed to vote from their position of "power". That is, hotspot owners should be able to have increased voting power. Validator stakers should have increased voting power. And of course HNT holders too. (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I am an older man with lots of life experience. I served my beloved Country and was Honorably discharged from the United States Marine Corps. I have worked a few decades in the civilian world and managed hundreds of people in a 200 million dollar company that I helped grow. I consider myself a fairly bright person with a tremendous passion for what ever I put my mind to. My religion, my family, my country, my job, and recently, this project. I just finished reading a weeks worth of debate on HIP 51. Even with all I have previously mentioned in this post, I failed to understand much of what I was reading on HIP 51. I am not saying I am incapable of understanding it, I am saying, I don't yet understand it. What this experience taught me, is even though I have a huge passion for the success of this project, I maybe should NOT have an equal, or even close to equal say in where this project is going. And if I, someone with my background, who researched tirelessly before installing my first Hotspot, with all of this passion, feels I am not the right person (right now) to vote on the direction of Helium, then most Hotspot owners, who don't share my background and passion should definitely not have an equal say in Helium's future. I do not know how a person, or if a person should be vetted before voting. I still know there are many new Hotspot owners who do fully understand how this project can move forward safely, and unfortunately, are the exception to the rule. I am reversing my stance on HIP 60. Sometimes a person's biggest strength is knowing what they don't know. (edited)
While I agree HIP51.52.53 are complex, I have also been reading your writing on this channel. Something is blocking you from groking these HIPs. It ain't because you can't. There is an aha moment in there waiting for someone to clarify for you.
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KeithR
But can't everything you say can be said about democracy in general? You think everyone that votes for Mitch McConnell understands the implications of their vote? Or if the Gavin Newsom voter is aware of his shenanigans? No they aint. But even more concerning to me is the ultra rich individual that cares not the implications of his vote on the rest of the world and has the ability to throw millions of dollars to have his speech magnified over and above mine or yours. This is not fair. The distribution of voters that don't understand, kind of understand, understand, and totally get it are probably similar for each side of a decision. In the case of democracy they should all vote if they desire and their votes should all count the same. In the case of a decentralized project, merit and effort and contribution have sway. More effort should get matched with increased voting power. More contribution should get matched with increased voting power. And this HIP is arguing that all of those entities should be allowed to vote from their position of "power". That is, hotspot owners should be able to have increased voting power. Validator stakers should have increased voting power. And of course HNT holders too. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 10:51 AM
The conclusion I have come to is those with "power" this early on are those with "knowledge" in the project. My posts and debates earlier were based on a democracy. I see now that, as with large business, this isn't a democracy, outside of the right to create a HIP. The owner of the company I work for, while he cares about our happiness and devotion, would not have a democratic vote on where the business he built for 35+ years is going. He will hire the best people he can that will make those decisions. Decisions that will be right for all.
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KeithR
While I agree HIP51.52.53 are complex, I have also been reading your writing on this channel. Something is blocking you from groking these HIPs. It ain't because you can't. There is an aha moment in there waiting for someone to clarify for you.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 10:53 AM
My point is if someone like me struggles this hard to "get it", then why put the future of our project in the hands of most, that do not have our passion and devotion to the future of our project.
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I did a big paper in graduate school (organizational psychology) on landmarks in the process of solving a problem. Math has clear landmarks; you know you are on step 3 of a 5 step process. Most other problem solving scenarios have unclear landmarks as you get closer to the solution. You generally don't know if you are close or far from the end. The "aha moment" is really when you finally notice that you are at the end or at least close to it. But if you think about it all the work beforehand was getting you closer and closer to the solution. So not really a flash of brilliance, it is just you noticed the finish line up ahead. (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
My point is if someone like me struggles this hard to "get it", then why put the future of our project in the hands of most, that do not have our passion and devotion to the future of our project.
I would argue that your struggles are because of a weakness in communication and not the difficulty of the HIP. Yes there are some complex parts for sure. If you don't get it, then you choose not to vote (the responsible action). However, if a multiple hotspot owner does get it why should she not have similar voting power as the few hundred HNT holder that also gets it? (edited)
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KeithR
I did a big paper in graduate school (organizational psychology) on landmarks in the process of solving a problem. Math has clear landmarks; you know you are on step 3 of a 5 step process. Most other problem solving scenarios have unclear landmarks as you get closer to the solution. You generally don't know if you are close or far from the end. The "aha moment" is really when you finally notice that you are at the end or at least close to it. But if you think about it all the work beforehand was getting you closer and closer to the solution. So not really a flash of brilliance, it is just you noticed the finish line up ahead. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 10:56 AM
Are you suggesting my change in opinion is from "caving" to the inevitable? I can assure you, my tail was between my legs when I came to the realization of the matter.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Are you suggesting my change in opinion is from "caving" to the inevitable? I can assure you, my tail was between my legs when I came to the realization of the matter.
I am suggesting I suspect you are lost in the weeds and you simply need a friend to yell from the road "over here man".
10:58
Or to take a peek at some magical compass that will tell you that you are indeed very close to the target (understanding). (edited)
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KeithR
I would argue that your struggles are because of a weakness in communication and not the difficulty of the HIP. Yes there are some complex parts for sure. If you don't get it, then you choose not to vote (the responsible action). However, if a multiple hotspot owner does get it why should she not have similar voting power as the few hundred HNT holder that also gets it? (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 11:00 AM
You may be missing my point and why I changed my opinion. If I worked this hard to understand the ins and outs of this project, to be better at what I do and to help point us into a bright future, then what about the hundreds of thousands that are not here, debating, learning, caring, and trying to understand our plan and future, they just simply click a box when it shows up on their board. That is what scares me right now.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
You may be missing my point and why I changed my opinion. If I worked this hard to understand the ins and outs of this project, to be better at what I do and to help point us into a bright future, then what about the hundreds of thousands that are not here, debating, learning, caring, and trying to understand our plan and future, they just simply click a box when it shows up on their board. That is what scares me right now.
I hope they have friends that will explain it to them or that they don't vote because they don't know shit. 🙂
11:01
You, on the other hand, are damn close to the target.
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11:01
Keep going.
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KeithR
Or to take a peek at some magical compass that will tell you that you are indeed very close to the target (understanding). (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 11:02 AM
Even if I got it, this afternoon, and I knew all there is to know about our project, that does not change the fact that most do not. And may vote us into a future that will destroy us.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Even if I got it, this afternoon, and I knew all there is to know about our project, that does not change the fact that most do not. And may vote us into a future that will destroy us.
But why does the guy with 400,000 HNT know better than you?
11:03
You think he is having the same existential discussion with himself? Nope. He is voting just like the hotspot owner not on Discord and not following all of this.
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KeithR
But why does the guy with 400,000 HNT know better than you?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 11:05 AM
While there are exceptions to the rule on our side, they too have them. For the most part, those with the most HNT took advantage of opportunities early and learned how to make Helium work. Those are the leaders, like my boss and his executive team, that deserve to point us in the right direction. They have the most to lose. I know, I hated to see that over and over again, but I can see how it applies.
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What I want from this HIP is that those folks that do vote (and if they have the same existential conversation before they vote, amen) should have fairly distributed voting power. And that the definition of "fairly distributed voting power" is determined by the group. We are a decentralized project. We are a group as a whole that have the responsibility of making the decisions of where it goes. We should decide as a group. (edited)
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KeithR
What I want from this HIP is that those folks that do vote (and if they have the same existential conversation before they vote, amen) should have fairly distributed voting power. And that the definition of "fairly distributed voting power" is determined by the group. We are a decentralized project. We are a group as a whole that have the responsibility of making the decisions of where it goes. We should decide as a group. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 11:08 AM
I agree. But, like in my first post here, the homeless guy that gets on a bus to a voting Precinct for a free meal, still votes, and he may not be understanding what the hell he is voting for.
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We have several kinds of "success" in this project. People that successfully own and installed a lot of hotspots. People that successfully converted their earnings to validator stakings. And we have people that have lots of HNT (whether through earnings within this project or from outside). There are likely other "successful" groups but these are the three I see so far. They each should be given increased voting power due to the merit of their success.
11:11
The hotspot owner converted all of her HNT to more hotspots. The validator staker put all of his earnings into a pool. The HNT holder is holding. All three contribute to the success of the project. All three should have say in the project. This HIP is to give all three some amount of say; the amounts to be determined by the group as a whole (but only counted if they participate as in vote).
11:13
A hotspot costs $500. If I install 100 of them, I invested $50,000. You invested your $50,000 in buying 5000 HNT. Suzy invested her $50,000 into a validator pool when the price was $n so she has y HNT in it. Shouldn't all three have an equal say (assuming they all "get it" and participate)?
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KeithR
We have several kinds of "success" in this project. People that successfully own and installed a lot of hotspots. People that successfully converted their earnings to validator stakings. And we have people that have lots of HNT (whether through earnings within this project or from outside). There are likely other "successful" groups but these are the three I see so far. They each should be given increased voting power due to the merit of their success.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 11:14 AM
Unfortunately, I have yet to fall into any of these categories. I am new, with a driving passion to see Helium succeed beyond anyone's comprehension. But I have only 4 hotspots, and because our PoC has suffered since my entry, I am HNT poor. (although I am getting ready to purchase a couple hundred) I would still be considered HNT poor. So how does a person like me, have a heavier weighted vote, than the hundreds of thousands that don't care to learn or know the project?
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Currently I get 75 votes because most of my HNT-flow goes out to my hosts. Suzy gets whatever spare HNT she has in her wallet because her validator pool HNT is not counted. You would be the only one that gets your fair share of voting power; you get 5000 votes.
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Angry Pickle Bear
Unrelated sorry: HIP 51 is quite complex, the Foundation getting some educational materials out today to help simplify some of the broader topics on HIP-51
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 11:17 AM
Thank you. Anything more would help. I feel very ignorant after trying to follow that. 😜
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
Unfortunately, I have yet to fall into any of these categories. I am new, with a driving passion to see Helium succeed beyond anyone's comprehension. But I have only 4 hotspots, and because our PoC has suffered since my entry, I am HNT poor. (although I am getting ready to purchase a couple hundred) I would still be considered HNT poor. So how does a person like me, have a heavier weighted vote, than the hundreds of thousands that don't care to learn or know the project?
In your case, your 4 hotspots gets you 4x the person with only 1 hotspot. Now let's say the group as a whole decides that hotspot owners are the bombdiggity and should get 80% voting power and that validators and HNT holders get 10% each. You would get voting power from the hotspots you own AND voting power from the HNT you own (though only 10% of it in this example).
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 11:19 AM
@KeithR you are awesome man. Truly. Unfortunately after trying to understand more of HIP 51+ I realized there are many who aren't even trying. And I asked myself, do I want them to vote on my future?
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
@KeithR you are awesome man. Truly. Unfortunately after trying to understand more of HIP 51+ I realized there are many who aren't even trying. And I asked myself, do I want them to vote on my future?
I yell at my TV daily the same thing but about "voters" in our country.
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KeithR
In your case, your 4 hotspots gets you 4x the person with only 1 hotspot. Now let's say the group as a whole decides that hotspot owners are the bombdiggity and should get 80% voting power and that validators and HNT holders get 10% each. You would get voting power from the hotspots you own AND voting power from the HNT you own (though only 10% of it in this example).
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 11:20 AM
But we are not there yet in the HIP. If we get to something like that, then I can see going that direction.
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KeithR
I did a big paper in graduate school (organizational psychology) on landmarks in the process of solving a problem. Math has clear landmarks; you know you are on step 3 of a 5 step process. Most other problem solving scenarios have unclear landmarks as you get closer to the solution. You generally don't know if you are close or far from the end. The "aha moment" is really when you finally notice that you are at the end or at least close to it. But if you think about it all the work beforehand was getting you closer and closer to the solution. So not really a flash of brilliance, it is just you noticed the finish line up ahead. (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 11:28 AM
I really like this, and that you put the time into sharing it. But is it possible that my "aha" moment was when I realized my ignorance in the project? And although I am addressing mine, many are (ignorant) , and will not. (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I am an older man with lots of life experience. I served my beloved Country and was Honorably discharged from the United States Marine Corps. I have worked a few decades in the civilian world and managed hundreds of people in a 200 million dollar company that I helped grow. I consider myself a fairly bright person with a tremendous passion for what ever I put my mind to. My religion, my family, my country, my job, and recently, this project. I just finished reading a weeks worth of debate on HIP 51. Even with all I have previously mentioned in this post, I failed to understand much of what I was reading on HIP 51. I am not saying I am incapable of understanding it, I am saying, I don't yet understand it. What this experience taught me, is even though I have a huge passion for the success of this project, I maybe should NOT have an equal, or even close to equal say in where this project is going. And if I, someone with my background, who researched tirelessly before installing my first Hotspot, with all of this passion, feels I am not the right person (right now) to vote on the direction of Helium, then most Hotspot owners, who don't share my background and passion should definitely not have an equal say in Helium's future. I do not know how a person, or if a person should be vetted before voting. I still know there are many new Hotspot owners who do fully understand how this project can move forward safely, and unfortunately, are the exception to the rule. I am reversing my stance on HIP 60. Sometimes a person's biggest strength is knowing what they don't know. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/27/2022 12:33 PM
It's not on you. It's up to the authors to make the hip clear. If you don't understand, that's on them.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
It's not on you. It's up to the authors to make the hip clear. If you don't understand, that's on them.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/27/2022 1:59 PM
I get the HIP. Where I got incredibly lost was the ongoing conversation between !Max, Keith, and Anthonyra. There were many terms, acronyms, and plans I could not wrap my head around. I am researching because the over all jist of their conversation kept my interest, even though I was lost. I heard many of the same terms and acronyms at the AMA earlier this week. My point is simply, I am working to educate myself, most of our fellow "co-workers" are not here and learning. (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
I get the HIP. Where I got incredibly lost was the ongoing conversation between !Max, Keith, and Anthonyra. There were many terms, acronyms, and plans I could not wrap my head around. I am researching because the over all jist of their conversation kept my interest, even though I was lost. I heard many of the same terms and acronyms at the AMA earlier this week. My point is simply, I am working to educate myself, most of our fellow "co-workers" are not here and learning. (edited)
Max - Just Max 05/27/2022 3:25 PM
You’ll get there. It was all new to us not that long ago
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Has people discussed about people quickly buying huge amount of vote from market and quickly dumping them once voted?
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Kaielogy
Has people discussed about people quickly buying huge amount of vote from market and quickly dumping them once voted?
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/28/2022 4:03 AM
Yes. That has been brought up. Thanks for peaking in. More discussion would be nice here. 🙂
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is ther anythign in this vote to address the HIP-53 VeHNT problem , average users arent goign to lock up their token for 6 months to get a vote bonus , the idea is simply giving more voting power to those who dispropotionally have it to begin with (edited)
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MoreDPS
is ther anythign in this vote to address the HIP-53 VeHNT problem , average users arent goign to lock up their token for 6 months to get a vote bonus , the idea is simply giving more voting power to those who dispropotionally have it to begin with (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 9:49 AM
Well yeah.. Those voting rules are being written by the rich
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MoreDPS
is ther anythign in this vote to address the HIP-53 VeHNT problem , average users arent goign to lock up their token for 6 months to get a vote bonus , the idea is simply giving more voting power to those who dispropotionally have it to begin with (edited)
Why not? they have less to risk. I’m more likely to lock up what I mine vs buying a significant amount and locking it up. (edited)
09:51
Heck I’ll lock up until next btc halving
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MoreDPS
is ther anythign in this vote to address the HIP-53 VeHNT problem , average users arent goign to lock up their token for 6 months to get a vote bonus , the idea is simply giving more voting power to those who dispropotionally have it to begin with (edited)
The idea is that they have/had more risk before. They have more risk now still. The question is, do you think that they have more of an idea of what is best for the network than someone that just learned of Helium today? (edited)
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09:59
No matter what model is proposed, I believe they should still have a heavy swing. But I personally think the current system (heliumvote) has a disproportionate gap with just HNT, and needs to fills some gaps. Hopefully the veHNT from the updated subdaos solves this.
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Fizzy
No matter what model is proposed, I believe they should still have a heavy swing. But I personally think the current system (heliumvote) has a disproportionate gap with just HNT, and needs to fills some gaps. Hopefully the veHNT from the updated subdaos solves this.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 10:17 AM
Unfortunately, that just the same issue with more steps
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Unfortunately, that just the same issue with more steps
Well it is only an issue if you disagree with my above statements.
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Fizzy
Well it is only an issue if you disagree with my above statements.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 10:19 AM
Not sure which statement you're referring to. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Not sure which statement you're referring to. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 10:21 AM
They know what is best for their pocketbooks, not for the rest of us.
10:21
51, 52 being prime examples (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
They know what is best for their pocketbooks, not for the rest of us.
Are you in it for your pocketbook?
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Fizzy
Are you in it for your pocketbook?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 10:26 AM
Yes, but not to the exclusion of others. I want us all to win.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yes, but not to the exclusion of others. I want us all to win.
So then you are under the belief that they are not. Which is fine, a very common thought in all of people, the rich oppressing the poor. I want to point out though your word of 'exclusion' does not apply here. This proposal itself excludes holders of HNT. Which would go against what you just said.
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Fizzy
So then you are under the belief that they are not. Which is fine, a very common thought in all of people, the rich oppressing the poor. I want to point out though your word of 'exclusion' does not apply here. This proposal itself excludes holders of HNT. Which would go against what you just said.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 10:34 AM
Ah, you must have missed the evolution of this hip a while back. Hnt holders are not excluded. 🙂
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Ah, you must have missed the evolution of this hip a while back. Hnt holders are not excluded. 🙂
Don't see it in the github?
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Fizzy
Don't see it in the github?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 10:35 AM
An update is being worked on. 🙂 (edited)
10:36
(Had to change that. The grammar was awful. Lol )
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Fizzy
So then you are under the belief that they are not. Which is fine, a very common thought in all of people, the rich oppressing the poor. I want to point out though your word of 'exclusion' does not apply here. This proposal itself excludes holders of HNT. Which would go against what you just said.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 10:38 AM
As far as rich vs poor, the actions have spoken quite clearly.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
As far as rich vs poor, the actions have spoken quite clearly.
Well even with your alterations, the people that were in earlier, with more investment, maybe more HNT, will still overweigh someone less in one way or another... as it should be imo. If not, I vote no. In America, we have an age limit for voting. Is there a reason for that, maybe because young ones are uneducated? Though even in the American voting system, we are not directly voting, we are just voting our preference, and other elected officials get the real say. (edited)
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Fizzy
The idea is that they have/had more risk before. They have more risk now still. The question is, do you think that they have more of an idea of what is best for the network than someone that just learned of Helium today? (edited)
I don’t think people who just joined will bother to vote. I also don’t think incentivizing people to go in deep will help anyone but those people. I can’t see how the people who just joined today would be served by taking their vote away and being told to invest more?
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Fizzy
Well even with your alterations, the people that were in earlier, with more investment, maybe more HNT, will still overweigh someone less in one way or another... as it should be imo. If not, I vote no. In America, we have an age limit for voting. Is there a reason for that, maybe because young ones are uneducated? Though even in the American voting system, we are not directly voting, we are just voting our preference, and other elected officials get the real say. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 1:42 PM
In America, I don't get more votes for being older. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
In America, I don't get more votes for being older. 😉
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/28/2022 1:47 PM
If we did,I could elect the POTUS all by myself!
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Regards the current vote that made this topic a little more active again: 'in favor' is winning by every metric, be it count, hnt or 1 miner 1 vote.
13:48
If you have another metric that I can add to my queries, I'm happy to if it is somewhat straight forward.
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
If we did,I could elect the POTUS all by myself!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 1:51 PM
Oh come on... You're not that old. 😉
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groot
Regards the current vote that made this topic a little more active again: 'in favor' is winning by every metric, be it count, hnt or 1 miner 1 vote.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 05/28/2022 1:53 PM
Certainly true. The spin is heavy on 51 and if people knew the reduction in rewards, things would be different. But instead there is the helium page, directly influencing people to vote yes, despite the claims of nova/foundation's non-involvement.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Certainly true. The spin is heavy on 51 and if people knew the reduction in rewards, things would be different. But instead there is the helium page, directly influencing people to vote yes, despite the claims of nova/foundation's non-involvement.
Communication on them isn't great, agreed.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
In America, I don't get more votes for being older. 😉
Democracy vs capitalism. Democracy voting is a right. Capitalism voting is based on contribution. The point was that even in a democracy there are those with less vote. 0 compared to 1. You can’t really run a business or a network like a democracy. We might as well just give voting rights to anyone that downloads the app.
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the voting process as a whole is flawed when for voting only the proponent of the HIP can write or omit anything they like for the vote page info. there is no counter arguement or facts in the voting page. (edited)
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Looking at hip 51 voting 30 votes in the 4 minutes that it went live and it was 21:9 in favor but a 99.99% weight towards passing. At that point why even vote at all on average those 21 votes had 32000hnt in their wallets which is crazy to vote against. Even if the entire community came together someone with an initial investment would click one button and bam back to 99.99% in favor. It's completely one sided. I don't even see this vote passing as it would take power away from those who control voting as it stands.
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03:59
Just looked again at votes for 51 and the average wallet size from the 3k voters is at least 6x larger then the person who says no. We definitely need a new system that's more fair for everyone. Although again if it's voted on with this much pressure I'm sure we'll see a 99.99% no go through here
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 05/29/2022 3:59 AM
you dont have to use hnt balance as a vote metric on heliumvote
04:00
so you can raise a vote and use anything on chain as a metric (edited)
04:00
i think like you say no one would be happy here if hnt balance was used to vote yes or no, maybe theres something that everyone can agree is fair in its place (edited)
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io
i think like you say no one would be happy here if hnt balance was used to vote yes or no, maybe theres something that everyone can agree is fair in its place (edited)
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 05/29/2022 4:58 AM
And THAT is why we have a channel to discuss. I believe MOST want a more fair system. MOST want OG's to have a heavier weighted vote, MOST want what is best for the project (long term) and not necessarily the immediate impact to their wallet, and MOST want a return on their investment. One HS, one vote is not fair to the above mentioned. 1 HNT, 1 vote is not fair to the above mentioned. So, let's continue to discuss until we get it right. And let's keep an opened mind enough to realize when we do get it right. (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
And THAT is why we have a channel to discuss. I believe MOST want a more fair system. MOST want OG's to have a heavier weighted vote, MOST want what is best for the project (long term) and not necessarily the immediate impact to their wallet, and MOST want a return on their investment. One HS, one vote is not fair to the above mentioned. 1 HNT, 1 vote is not fair to the above mentioned. So, let's continue to discuss until we get it right. And let's keep an opened mind enough to realize when we do get it right. (edited)
has anyone suggested a metric that HNT equivalent to the avg cost of a hotspot (~$800)= 1 vote , should be equal to owning a HS=1 vote (edited)
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MoreDPS
has anyone suggested a metric that HNT equivalent to the avg cost of a hotspot (~$800)= 1 vote , should be equal to owning a HS=1 vote (edited)
In a sense yes. Stay tuned for the next draft of this HIP. I believe it covers a lot of the concerns and is quite fair to all (even those with a lot of HNT-based voting power). (edited)
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Im not sure that'd be a good idea due to the Ever Changing price of HNT if you peg a hotspot to be worth a fixed about and HNT goes up your Voting power goes down and back up if it Dumps? Im not sure that would be a better system. How do you even validate that. Check assigned hotspots to a wallet adress Give them Value Cross check HNT price and then apply voting power? its a weird thing for sure
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Deleted User
Generally in favour of this because right now the voting system allows anyone to hoover up HNT and swing the vote. How about validators? My suggestion in an earlier discussion was votes per validator = no. of online hotspots / no. of online validators or a variation thereof (edited)
Validators owned by companies though and are usually pools... do you have a validator yourself ?
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Ay0hCrypto(ALCRYMIST) 05/31/2022 8:19 PM
not surprised 51-53 is going to be pushed through before this goes to a ote
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numbers say it all (edited)
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Wouldn't it be cool if you could vote with your Hotspot
23:04
I don't want to get banned but from what I've seen it seems like helium cares more about the validators than the people that actually run the network. Or is that just me.
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zjs81
I don't want to get banned but from what I've seen it seems like helium cares more about the validators than the people that actually run the network. Or is that just me.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 06/01/2022 12:22 AM
Authors can decide the voting metrics. And besides, you are part of helium too
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zjs81
I don't want to get banned but from what I've seen it seems like helium cares more about the validators than the people that actually run the network. Or is that just me.
I think it is not so much the validators, but it just happens to be that those are also the people holding large amounts of HNT. So basically 'the peoples network' is just a local copy of how russia is ran
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zjs81
I don't want to get banned but from what I've seen it seems like helium cares more about the validators than the people that actually run the network. Or is that just me.
Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 06/01/2022 9:39 AM
You wouldn't get banned on having an honest opinion, but I would recommend trying to understand more about tomorrow, for everyone, than today, alone.
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Authors can decide the voting metrics. And besides, you are part of helium too
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/01/2022 9:45 AM
That's not true. if someone tried to set the passing rate at 25%, or said only valid votes are from dog owners, it would be ignored.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
That's not true. if someone tried to set the passing rate at 25%, or said only valid votes are from dog owners, it would be ignored.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 06/01/2022 9:47 AM
Might have been not accurate enough, but the author can choose if the metric is hnt or anything else as long as it's measurable on the Blockchain (edited)
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It would obviously have to satisfy rough consensus by some metric. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_consensus
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Might have been not accurate enough, but the author can choose if the metric is hnt or anything else as long as it's measurable on the Blockchain (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/01/2022 9:48 AM
A non-hnt weighted vote would be ignored.
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Try it out😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
A non-hnt weighted vote would be ignored.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 06/01/2022 9:49 AM
I mean yeah maybe, but my point was just that it's technically possible.
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09:49
I already regret writing on here 🤭 (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I mean yeah maybe, but my point was just that it's technically possible.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/01/2022 9:49 AM
Yes, anything is technically possible 😉
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
I already regret writing on here 🤭 (edited)
Why? You managed HIP39 pretty well Troll
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groot
Why? You managed HIP39 pretty well Troll
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/01/2022 9:53 AM
Too soon... 😉 lol
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Too soon... 😉 lol
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 06/01/2022 9:54 AM
Yup too soon😅
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zjs81
I don't want to get banned but from what I've seen it seems like helium cares more about the validators than the people that actually run the network. Or is that just me.
just you
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸 06/02/2022 6:31 AM
HIP 51 is proving the importance of this HIP. But unfortunately it does not matter because too many people bought a Hotspot, set it up (mostly improperly) and moved on with their lives. These are the people who found a social media page recently and are asking "Does anyone know what is happening with Helium? My awards have really dropped over the last month and my Hotspot appears to be on. At least I know it's plugged in." Once 51 is implemented, watch all of the people come out asking "What is this $IoT? Where is HNT? I bought my HS to mine HNT, not this $IoT." And many, many, MANY more questions. They will be furious, because they will feel like this happened without their say. Or, even more dangerous... "This is not what I thought I was voting for!" That momentum of confusion and anger NEEDS to be directed at this HIP so they will feel they have more of a say in future changes to the network. We can't enforce involvement. We can't MAKE them take more of an interest in our project than plugging in a Hotspot. Truth be known, once the people who don't put forth an effort to support the project and its future see they are no longer mining HNT, they will lose interest all together and eventually will be out of the picture completely. People like the people in here will pick up the pieces and move forward. (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
HIP 51 is proving the importance of this HIP. But unfortunately it does not matter because too many people bought a Hotspot, set it up (mostly improperly) and moved on with their lives. These are the people who found a social media page recently and are asking "Does anyone know what is happening with Helium? My awards have really dropped over the last month and my Hotspot appears to be on. At least I know it's plugged in." Once 51 is implemented, watch all of the people come out asking "What is this $IoT? Where is HNT? I bought my HS to mine HNT, not this $IoT." And many, many, MANY more questions. They will be furious, because they will feel like this happened without their say. Or, even more dangerous... "This is not what I thought I was voting for!" That momentum of confusion and anger NEEDS to be directed at this HIP so they will feel they have more of a say in future changes to the network. We can't enforce involvement. We can't MAKE them take more of an interest in our project than plugging in a Hotspot. Truth be known, once the people who don't put forth an effort to support the project and its future see they are no longer mining HNT, they will lose interest all together and eventually will be out of the picture completely. People like the people in here will pick up the pieces and move forward. (edited)
Papapiquillo74 06/02/2022 9:34 AM
Totally agree, but it is the risk that the big wallets have to take so that their project can continue, they decide why this HIP establishes it.
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DigitalHuevos🥚 06/05/2022 6:19 PM
Is there a possibility of putting a cap on larger "rev Share" companies.
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DigitalHuevos🥚
Is there a possibility of putting a cap on larger "rev Share" companies.
They can just divide into wallets
18:19
How can you implement that?
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DigitalHuevos🥚 06/05/2022 6:20 PM
Where there's a will there is always a way.
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DigitalHuevos🥚
Where there's a will there is always a way.
Yeah hence getting around that limit
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DigitalHuevos🥚 06/05/2022 6:21 PM
Same way it's detected when spoofing clusters are tied to multiple wallets.
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That’s not the same at all
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DigitalHuevos🥚 06/05/2022 6:21 PM
The detection element could be
18:22
I'm not a coder. But honestly it's can't be impossible.
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If you provide legit coverage there is no way to distinguish between hotpot ownership if not through a single wallet
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Helium Tank | The Pennymaker 06/05/2022 6:22 PM
There's a flaw in this hip. lol
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@Helium Tank | The Pennymaker you think?
18:23
One ?
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Helium Tank | The Pennymaker 06/05/2022 6:23 PM
lol 🙂
18:23
I guess this should be relabeled "HIP Theatre Proposal #1"
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18:24
Any proposal to change the way a voting operates will fail.. Simple fact.
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Helium Tank | The Pennymaker
Any proposal to change the way a voting operates will fail.. Simple fact.
Somewhat yes.
18:25
Hip 51 will change the vote
18:25
And will get implemented
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Helium Tank | The Pennymaker 06/05/2022 6:25 PM
For one, you have to follow old rules to change the vote to new rules. And when those in control are quite peachy with having that control, they won't opt for that change.
18:28
Changed to the vote structure should have a different set of rules regarding that vote. i.e hip votes are based on value of hnt, changes to vote structure are voted by network asset majority (hotspot, validator, etc each being one vote)
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18:28
Then no one entity has absolute power.
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Helium Tank | The Pennymaker
Changed to the vote structure should have a different set of rules regarding that vote. i.e hip votes are based on value of hnt, changes to vote structure are voted by network asset majority (hotspot, validator, etc each being one vote)
Hip 51 will require staking hnt to vote. So no voting to make the hnt value less unless you want to lose money. If you have faith in the project you can lock up for 4years giving you 100x the vote of someone who locks up for the 6 month minimum. If you don’t hold and have skin in the game you can’t vote. If you just want to cash out then you are more of a worker than an investor and are there just for the paycheck
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Helium Tank | The Pennymaker 06/05/2022 6:37 PM
oooh nice
18:38
ty for clarifying.
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I will be using mined hnt to stake for vote. If we all do this miners can decide the votes. It’s all about who believes the most in the network
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Helium Tank | The Pennymaker 06/05/2022 6:38 PM
helium for life! 🙂 i was a miner junkie. I've transitioned into a sensor junkie. lol
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id like to thank cvolkernick, the hip in its current format looks excellent 🙂 having "contributing network utility" valid is great, the HNT weighting from validators looks very fair too -Hotspot: 1 vote (1,055,000 DC) -Validator: X votes, where X = DC equivalent of 10,000 HNT stake at time of staking / 1,055,000 -Router: Y votes, where Y = DC on organization console / 1,055,000) it looks like this will stop multi wallet voting 🙂
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Is there any date when we can vote on that hip ?
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mineHNT
Is there any date when we can vote on that hip ?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 06/07/2022 1:49 AM
depends on the author, they have to initalize
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
depends on the author, they have to initalize
Would not waste any time more this have to be done asap (edited)
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mineHNT
Would not waste any time more this have to be done asap (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 06/07/2022 1:52 AM
This is easier said then done, we have this hip more or less as other spiritual predecessors like #hip-31-governance-by-token-lock , #hip-41-governance-by-token-lock-v2 . And this hip just just another take
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01:52
Not saying it's not important. Just complicated (edited)
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I support the network and all... but not the type of governance base on you are heard depending on HOW much money you have
10:01
vote should be by hotspot
10:01
WE THE PEOPLE
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EdB-charlietango 06/07/2022 10:02 AM
You do realize that this would shift power over to fleet owners, right?
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is there a problem with that?
10:03
look at ETH they screwing miners
10:04
If a majority of bitcoin miners “vote” for a particular upgrade then by definition this is the new version of bitcoin. The number of votes each miner gets is proportional to the amount of computational power they are adding to the network
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EdB-charlietango 06/07/2022 10:04 AM
Fleet owners already have sizeable HNT balances. Switching over to per hotspot could cause a massive dump of tokens too.
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if fleet owners think a proposal will not be good for them then they will vote against it. so imaging ATT with another fund Buy a bunch HNT then they do HIP to take something out of fleet owners
10:08
fleet ownwers are screw over interest of big centralized corporations
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EdB-charlietango
Fleet owners already have sizeable HNT balances. Switching over to per hotspot could cause a massive dump of tokens too.
i get your argument but consider that most are probably selling already. jmho
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EdB-charlietango 06/07/2022 12:18 PM
To be fair, generalizations on blockchain data that has not actually been researched is lazy. Do better. (And I mean this for myself as well.) (edited)
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I would like to suggest we change the bar charts showing % yes and %no to the actual number of yes and actual number of No with a 3rd bar showing the number not voting. My reasoning for the third bar is obvious for it shows just how many are not voting. I have gotten into discussions regarding the % yes and no. Many are interpreting the % yes, let’s say 95% as the total number of the entire community that has said yes and therefore won’t vote. They don’t realize it means 95% of those that voted says yes. The 3rd bar will make it clear…Their votes matters! Any thoughts? (edited)
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With regards to voting, no where I know on this planet, people get to vote on everything. The best case in the US is we vote for leadership and trust them to do the right thing for the people and not just for themselves or a specific group. Unfortunately that is exactly what happens. Allowing all to vote on HIPS is the best case for decentralization. Regardless of the weight we give to the voting community it is important we understand these HIPs from the lenses we are viewing them. Most HIPs are too technical with not enough emphasis on what we care about: sustainability, growth, profitability to name a few. I believe the technical side should have discussions in a place where people can listen in if they want. Validators, miners and holders have their own perspectives that need to be addressed and discussed. I guess in essence if HIPS were written to address key things we want to know, voting would be more educated.
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buton
if fleet owners think a proposal will not be good for them then they will vote against it. so imaging ATT with another fund Buy a bunch HNT then they do HIP to take something out of fleet owners
Att would not do this
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@HG they said the samething about LUNA and UST
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buton
@HG they said the samething about LUNA and UST
LUNA is completely incomparable. Comical tbh (edited)
07:57
Why would att want to “take out” fleet owners? I’m not even sure what that means. Frankly, the reason the voting system is the way it is is to prevent the complete lack of understanding about anything that is evident in this conversation from negatively impacting the network.
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Chris Volkernick author of hip60. How to reach him or her?
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Stefz
Chris Volkernick author of hip60. How to reach him or her?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 06/10/2022 3:43 AM
I checked, it's @🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
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@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 ok cool will try to reach him or her later and keep u updated!
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EdB-charlietango
Fleet owners already have sizeable HNT balances. Switching over to per hotspot could cause a massive dump of tokens too.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 06/10/2022 9:31 AM
I assure you we don't. Lol. The majority of rewards just gets paid out to hosts or goes back in to operating costs.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I assure you we don't. Lol. The majority of rewards just gets paid out to hosts or goes back in to operating costs.
EdB-charlietango 06/10/2022 9:35 AM
You aren’t the only one… and still, it would put fleet owners in more of a powerful voting position. I’m not going to assert that it’s too much power… but I would DEFINITELY need to see some metrics on just how many miners are there for each fleet, Ermit included.
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 06/10/2022 9:37 AM
I'm still curious where people are getting the idea that even if that's argument was accurate it isn't already the case as-is. It's actually materially worse since you don't even have to earn rewards you can just buy them.
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EdB-charlietango 06/10/2022 9:41 AM
Two separate issues of buying rewards vs numbers of hotspots. You could also buy hotspots, even if they’re on the denylist potentially. I want to see the due diligence of how much voting power would change under this…. With ACTUAL numbers. (edited)
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09:42
One could acquire fleet companies as well.
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EdB-charlietango
You aren’t the only one… and still, it would put fleet owners in more of a powerful voting position. I’m not going to assert that it’s too much power… but I would DEFINITELY need to see some metrics on just how many miners are there for each fleet, Ermit included.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/10/2022 1:52 PM
Even if that were true, why shouldn't they have voting power? They installed hotspots and built the network, same as the rest of us.
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EdB-charlietango
Two separate issues of buying rewards vs numbers of hotspots. You could also buy hotspots, even if they’re on the denylist potentially. I want to see the due diligence of how much voting power would change under this…. With ACTUAL numbers. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/10/2022 1:53 PM
Active hotspots, not hotspots on a shelf, get votes.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Active hotspots, not hotspots on a shelf, get votes.
EdB-charlietango 06/10/2022 1:54 PM
Asserted as lone wolfs? 😒 they should have voting rights. Just need to make sure it’s balanced. Regardless, I want to see the data/extrapolation.
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EdB-charlietango
Asserted as lone wolfs? 😒 they should have voting rights. Just need to make sure it’s balanced. Regardless, I want to see the data/extrapolation.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/10/2022 1:54 PM
That would be an active hotspot. 🙂
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EdB-charlietango 06/10/2022 1:55 PM
But if it’s sitting on a shelf… 😒
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/10/2022 1:55 PM
There is far more to this hip than "hotspots vote" 🙂
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EdB-charlietango 06/10/2022 1:55 PM
That’s where it started originally.
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EdB-charlietango
But if it’s sitting on a shelf… 😒
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/10/2022 1:55 PM
"sitting on a shelf" meaning not part of the network, not powered, denylisted, etc.
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EdB-charlietango
That’s where it started originally.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 06/10/2022 1:55 PM
A lot has changed. 🙂 (edited)
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EdB-charlietango 06/10/2022 2:01 PM
It’s not extrapolated out as far as data and balance. Aside from Chris, I would want another fleet owner or two to co-author this HIP and/or having documented commentary on the HIP. It needs on chain analysis of potential vote outcomes.
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Vote with what you've earned in the past XX days
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how about this for a seed of an idea. voters are divided into voting blocks lets call them Centuries, based on if either you if are a hotspot owner (10,000 hotspots to a century) or a validator grouped into centuries of validators of a fixed number say (100 each for example. ) each Century votes to put forward its group vote on any proposal. this would be far more representative than the current system.
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HG
Why would att want to “take out” fleet owners? I’m not even sure what that means. Frankly, the reason the voting system is the way it is is to prevent the complete lack of understanding about anything that is evident in this conversation from negatively impacting the network.
most Joe Public people owing miners could not hope to understand much of the tech waffle in Helium in a month of Sundays...but they still contribute. Ignorance has never been a bar to voting in a representative democracy.. otherwise what you are proposing is only the tech savvy have a right to vote (edited)
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Stanton
With regards to voting, no where I know on this planet, people get to vote on everything. The best case in the US is we vote for leadership and trust them to do the right thing for the people and not just for themselves or a specific group. Unfortunately that is exactly what happens. Allowing all to vote on HIPS is the best case for decentralization. Regardless of the weight we give to the voting community it is important we understand these HIPs from the lenses we are viewing them. Most HIPs are too technical with not enough emphasis on what we care about: sustainability, growth, profitability to name a few. I believe the technical side should have discussions in a place where people can listen in if they want. Validators, miners and holders have their own perspectives that need to be addressed and discussed. I guess in essence if HIPS were written to address key things we want to know, voting would be more educated.
completely agree. While to the Tech minded HIPs are 'transparent' they are in fact super complicated and impenetrable to anyone reading them who is not tech savvy. (edited)
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Stanton
I would like to suggest we change the bar charts showing % yes and %no to the actual number of yes and actual number of No with a 3rd bar showing the number not voting. My reasoning for the third bar is obvious for it shows just how many are not voting. I have gotten into discussions regarding the % yes and no. Many are interpreting the % yes, let’s say 95% as the total number of the entire community that has said yes and therefore won’t vote. They don’t realize it means 95% of those that voted says yes. The 3rd bar will make it clear…Their votes matters! Any thoughts? (edited)
agree completely again. I have been saying for a while the communication between Helium and grassroots miner owners (and between themselves for that matter) is very poor indeed with a tiny percentage communicating here on discord. This tiny proportion has a few hundred shouty members who seem to set the tone for debate. I am prepared to bet all my HNT 80% or more of miner owners do not even know about the discord channels or engage in discussion or voting in ay way. The tail ends up wagging the dog. I feel Helium missed a huge trick not having a communication platform akin to WhatsApp built into the Helium app. Its a data transfer network after all how hard could this be for the Dev team to create? Its a cake walk compared to developing Helium as concept surely? You pay a say 1 Data Credit to send a message to any miner owner (after validation and security checks of course) this would help create real engagement from a far higher proportion of the 900,000 miner owners. (edited)
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Jeff USMC🦅🌎⚓🇺🇸
HIP 51 is proving the importance of this HIP. But unfortunately it does not matter because too many people bought a Hotspot, set it up (mostly improperly) and moved on with their lives. These are the people who found a social media page recently and are asking "Does anyone know what is happening with Helium? My awards have really dropped over the last month and my Hotspot appears to be on. At least I know it's plugged in." Once 51 is implemented, watch all of the people come out asking "What is this $IoT? Where is HNT? I bought my HS to mine HNT, not this $IoT." And many, many, MANY more questions. They will be furious, because they will feel like this happened without their say. Or, even more dangerous... "This is not what I thought I was voting for!" That momentum of confusion and anger NEEDS to be directed at this HIP so they will feel they have more of a say in future changes to the network. We can't enforce involvement. We can't MAKE them take more of an interest in our project than plugging in a Hotspot. Truth be known, once the people who don't put forth an effort to support the project and its future see they are no longer mining HNT, they will lose interest all together and eventually will be out of the picture completely. People like the people in here will pick up the pieces and move forward. (edited)
It would help if Helium was not still advertised as a 'plugin and go way' means of earning passive income, if it was its not anymore. Its like the Matrix.. most take the red pill as they do not know the blue pill down the rabbit hole even exists. It partly explains why the vast majority of the still tiny proportion of hotspot owners I see joining forums on here come here to complain about faults with miners, or the network or 'this is not what I was lead to believe Helium was'. We need to bring people on board with honest advertising, and user friendly advice in layman's language. bring people in to find solutions and be part of Helium not just a disgruntled miner owner who feels cheated or excluded by swathes of technobabble.. An example of unhelpful but well intended advice is 'oh just follow what is going on on the blockchain development thread then you will understand' understand?? If you have a PHd in Linux or C+ perhaps..its impenetrable and unproductive for 95% + of miner owners. Helium is not Inclusive. It needs to be. (edited)
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Screwtape7
most Joe Public people owing miners could not hope to understand much of the tech waffle in Helium in a month of Sundays...but they still contribute. Ignorance has never been a bar to voting in a representative democracy.. otherwise what you are proposing is only the tech savvy have a right to vote (edited)
Yes
17:54
There’s a reason why certain people run businesses
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KeithR
A hotspot costs $500. If I install 100 of them, I invested $50,000. You invested your $50,000 in buying 5000 HNT. Suzy invested her $50,000 into a validator pool when the price was $n so she has y HNT in it. Shouldn't all three have an equal say (assuming they all "get it" and participate)?
I like this line of thinking a lot .and its is a more detailed breakdown of my somewhat basic and crude Voting Century Idea.. better actually call them voting Molecules as we are in the Helium network. Having a say based as you proposed investment in Hardware as well as currency makes a lot of sense. If members of Helium were put into voting Block Molecules with a value of say 100,000HNT per Voting Molecule. Each voter has a value determined by the amount they contributed as you outline but each block has a fixed value of 1 vote. The voting blocks have 1 random validator or staker with a value of 10,000 HNT the rest of the members are also randomised before each vote. You end up in a voting block with a mix of a validator miners and stakers with a minimum number of individuals say..100 who's total investment is as close to 100,000HNT as possible. with one rule there is no more than 1 individual with a value of 10,000HNT or more per block your Block has a time frame to debate and discuss before it casts its internal vote either for or against the proposal in question. the 10,000 HNT value validator has 10% of the blocks total voting power ( a lot) but can easily be out voted by the small fry if they choose to vote the other way. if an individual has more than a value of 10,000 HNT their voting power must be 'split' into 10,000 units or less and go into different Molecule blocks. (edited)
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HG
Yes
Yes to what? only the tech savvy have a right to vote. ? excluding people for lack of knowledge. it will be a damn small voting pool then and a meritocracy not a democracy. I cannot accept that as a sensible inclusive proposition. (edited)
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Screwtape7
Yes to what? only the tech savvy have a right to vote. ? excluding people for lack of knowledge. it will be a damn small voting pool then and a meritocracy not a democracy. I cannot accept that as a sensible inclusive proposition. (edited)
Democracy doesn’t exist
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HG
Democracy doesn’t exist
certainly not here it does not...and we can only try and make things a fair as possible here as in society (edited)
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This isn’t a place for fairness it’s for making decisions that are most likely to make the network accrue value
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HG
This isn’t a place for fairness it’s for making decisions that are most likely to make the network accrue value
and one of those decisions to do what you propose must be to keep a network of miners running. That wont happen if owners get angry and turn their miners off if they feel cheated or not listened to or represented on what is pitched to be 'the peoples network'. Helium is nothing without the network of miners and most are held by ordinary people with maybe just one or a handful. lose enough of these and there is no Helium network anymore,. the 10,000 or so people on these discord pages who contribute actively do not not own and cannot own or locate enough miners to keep the network viable...we need the 800,000 Average Joes to be on board with miners. This kind of condescending elitist proposal of yours is the best way to lose even more of them. (edited)
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Max - Just Max
There won’t ever be a scenario where you ever actually influence any votes and that’s not a bad thing. You do, however, have the ability to propose a HIP and let that HIP get discussed amongst the community, including Nova’s CEO. That gives you a considerably more reachable voice than having an equal share of a corporation. This thing about why should the guy who set up a hotspot in 2021 get more of a say than the guy who did it in 2022 is red herring. Both of those people have no say in the voting process. Decentralized voting is way too slow - just look at HIP-40. Sometimes you need a smaller concentration of people able to make quick decisions and take quick action. Now’s the part where someone calls me a bootlicker.
The argument for Dictatorship (however expedient and effective) throughout the ages..
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greenz
The distribution of HNT is proportional to your individual input to the network. You split your piece of the pie with your investors and hosts. those who invest and host themselves don’t have that expense or aid, or ability to scale. now want more voting power bc you “feel” you don’t have enough. Only reason it wouldn’t be enough is either because you didn’t hold or bc your contribution to the network is overestimated. You mention your margins, well that’s on you. You chose to take a risk and have already been rewarded for it. If anything this shows that fleets don’t need to be incentivized and that it’s more efficient and “decentralized” if we shifted to only host owned hotspots. I would think that you would agree to this seeing as you don’t see the value that capital brings to the network and that holders shouldn’t get representation. Incentivizing people to buy hotspots is no longer needed. We have enough saturation ,coverage and hotspots to redistribute. We should only incentivize good coverage (edited)
The crux of your argument here is on the misguided premise we don't need more hotspots. and we can simply 'redistribute' the ones we have. 1. There are large areas of the globe with no or few hotspots even in affluent countries like the UK in rural areas. Agreed. redistribution or more miners are needed. 2. re distribute? you make it sound so simple as if this happens at the flick of a switch or by waving a magic wand? Redistribution requires communication and coordination between a very large mass of the hotspot owners not just the 10,000 or so die hard owners discussing things here on Discord. Communication which has NOT been made obvious, easy and accessible to a huge percentage of miner owners by Helium. A case in point. there are over 70 hotspots in my small town on the south coast of the UK causing oversaturation in the res 6 hex. If just 7 were placed in the adjoining one the transmit scale in my town's hex would jump back up to 1 for almost all miners. I messaged every single miner owner on Hotspotty and got ONE response who quickly lost interest and stopped communicating. a roughly 1.45% response rate. If this percentage of owners on or even aware of hotspotty for communication and coordination is reflected globally there is no way on earth 'redeployment' will happen in any meaningful way in a month of Sundays. So unless Helium employs a quick, simple obvious way for owners to communicate to each other en-masse this 'redeployment' notion of yours is a pipe dream and the only way to deploy more new miners by any means to grow the network. This means keeping the incentive to do so up.
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FYI don’t expect others to move hotspots. Move your own.
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Keenan
FYI don’t expect others to move hotspots. Move your own.
I have actually and am only deploying in areas that help desaturation of the hex I motioned. however I have run out of funds and can't afford anymore miners and have run out of hosts. I don't expect others to do anything but it would be great if people did communicate and cooperate to do so unless I missed a big point of what Hot spotty and Helium proport to promote. what is the point of the messaging tool and shared workspaces in hot spotty then?
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Hotspotty is a third party app
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Keenan
Hotspotty is a third party app
Yes I know this. but its promoted by Helium actively. are you trying to tell me Helium does not want to encourage co-operation and communication between hotspot owners? besides you are missing the entire thrust of my post.
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Helium just made the tech. Everything else is community run. Is what I’m saying.
21:32
If people want to communicate. Make an app. Go for it.
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Keenan
Helium just made the tech. Everything else is community run. Is what I’m saying.
Oh just make an app! so simple ! Perhaps for someone with a degree in programming not for me. I'm a mental health nurse. Its as easy for me to 'make an app' as it would be for a Dev team member to correctly diagnose and medicate a person with BPD... (edited)
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Screwtape7
Oh just make an app! so simple ! Perhaps for someone with a degree in programming not for me. I'm a mental health nurse. Its as easy for me to 'make an app' as it would be for a Dev team member to correctly diagnose and medicate a person with BPD... (edited)
I’m not saying you specifically
21:36
Anyway. Good night!
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Keenan
Helium just made the tech. Everything else is community run. Is what I’m saying.
why could they not include 'in the tech' of the helium a better communication tool other than the 'notifications' bell? in this day and age of instant messengers and the very nature of the Helium it seems to me to be a no brainer.
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Keenan
I’m not saying you specifically
well it did came across that way. Good night to you too. 🙂
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[PBS] epsilonion. (• Y •) 07/21/2022 10:57 AM
This sounds more like a community way of voting, better than the current way of doing things
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I'm still curious where people are getting the idea that even if that's argument was accurate it isn't already the case as-is. It's actually materially worse since you don't even have to earn rewards you can just buy them.
What's the status of this?
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shadowfax
What's the status of this?
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 07/25/2022 2:44 PM
not really up to me I just started the convo...up to the community. seems like it's unlikely to pass considering governance is supposedly addressed via DAO(s)
14:45
I know that @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped & @KeithR were contemplating a revised draft or fork HIP. Not sure where they stand with that. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I know that @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped & @KeithR were contemplating a revised draft or fork HIP. Not sure where they stand with that. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 07/25/2022 2:47 PM
Yeah, been a bit busy and also seeing how the whole dao thing shakes out 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Yeah, been a bit busy and also seeing how the whole dao thing shakes out 🙂 (edited)
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 07/25/2022 2:47 PM
same here...lol
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14:47
bear market default alive mode 💤
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I’d love to see this, not sure if it could pass based on how the whole dao thing 😭
15:11
I’d love to see it move forward
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
I know that @ElonTusk | 5Gchipped & @KeithR were contemplating a revised draft or fork HIP. Not sure where they stand with that. (edited)
Written. Needs to be edited by the others as I wrote it as if it were my HIP (which it definitely is not).
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KeithR
Written. Needs to be edited by the others as I wrote it as if it were my HIP (which it definitely is not).
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 07/25/2022 3:26 PM
are you good with the hip submission process? You were debating amending or starting from scratch, iirc. I can assist with the submission process if you need. 👍
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
are you good with the hip submission process? You were debating amending or starting from scratch, iirc. I can assist with the submission process if you need. 👍
I have no idea how to do any of it. I just did the first draft for you two to edit and confirm if you thought I was looney or not. 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 07/25/2022 3:28 PM
that's what the community is for! 😆
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KeithR
Written. Needs to be edited by the others as I wrote it as if it were my HIP (which it definitely is not).
i look forward to seeing a copy of this 🙂 passed
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Something I wrote in response another comment about how the current voting system is terrible and now expanded. How could the vote counted? Current: By HNT in wallet Always a complaint about early investors and whales controlling the vote and also large scale cheaters could control the vote with the HNT they earned. HIP60: By number of hotspots owned/online? (Assume denylist cant vote) That would mean Emrit, iHub and some big deployers (whales) control a large part of the vote who are linked to vendors - either a pro or a con depeding on your view By discord ID? There are probably more sleeping bot created accounts on discord than the number of people who voted either way for The Publish Denylist vote so the scammer bots could control the denylist vote if activated (for a price) we could see this but it would be hard to quantify. By Wallet ID? Anyone can create lots more wallets and prepopulate them with some HNT to vote using scripts so its back to being controlled by cheaters or whales with lots of HNT. By KYC (Know your customer): Providing some form of ID to be able to vote. This was pushed back on a lot by those who want to not have any form of ID associated with Cyrpto earnings. Its going to be difficult to get a voting mechanism that is agreeable to most. HIP41 has a very complicated one. I would agree that there does need to be a new voting system created but it needs to account for the new subDAOs and the veDNT function. Personally i find it hard to understand the view that a cost of $0.35 for a vote on something that could affect you by many factors of difference is not worth doing. I dont buy anything that cheap.
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HeliumQuest 07/29/2022 4:46 AM
Trying to move voting structure problems convo over here...Going to come back to a question I asked in another HIP thread: What's the purpose of voting? It'd be interesting to get the Foundation and Nova's answer to that question...
04:47
For me, as a participant in the project, I think the purpose of voting is to recognize the investment of those who've dumped money into the system and to leverage the collective engagement of "The People" by giving them a voice, allowing that voice to be heard, and thus keeping them engaged and investing.
04:52
As it appears to me, the current voting structure is heavily weighted in favor of the biggest and earliest investors and participants. It would kind of be like if we restructured the US vote to give you 1 vote each year you were a voter (handing 82 votes to a 100 yr. old and 1 to an 18 year old), or to give voting power based on income (giving 40% of US voting power to the top 1% of earners). Either of those schemes pushes you inexorably towards three things: 1) Class/intergenerational warfare, 2) disengagement of a large segment from the system, 3) Revolution/civil strife.
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HeliumQuest 07/29/2022 5:12 AM
I have no problem giving a degree of a weighted vote to the biggest investors--businesses wouldn't exist without allowing people to protect and direct their investment. But businesses--especially decentralized ones--depend on the continued engagement of the "little people". The little people are investors too. And that's where the current structure fails abysmally. Why should a new investor buy/install a hotspot if they feel they have no effective say in the system? If they've been told it's "The People's Network", but they find out it's really the "Whale's Network"? Now certain people will say, "You want the most experienced/knowledgeable folks directing things--it makes sense to give them more voting power." But this can lead to a seriously flawed approach... (edited)
05:15
Giving people a legitimate voice and stake engages them. It makes them WANT to become more knowledgeable, and this in turn maximizes the brainpower spent on the system. This is why you give the vote at age 18, when most people are still young and inexperienced--because they will either participate in the system or checkout at that age and whichever of those states they fall into will persist for decades. If they don't feel they have that voice, though, they won't self-educate. This is what led to the pathetic vote count on HIP 52 and 53. The vast, vast majority of non-US hotspot owners checked out after HIP-51 (Change my mind...). Why read HIPs that don't apply to you, or do in only an indirect manner? Giving a legit stake while young adults are 18, or when that single hotspot owner has just come on-line and is still inexperienced/ignorant sets the stage for having a knowledgeable participant who'll sink decades of thought and effort into the system. (edited)
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HeliumQuest 07/29/2022 5:30 AM
Even though I haven't voted ever for a HIP (for reasons I've explained elsewhere, but comes down to the too-high opportunity cost over time of present voting), I've gotten more educated with each Hip, because I love learning, but also because I have a fundamental (naive) belief in a voting system on principle. Now crush that over time, and the money and effort won't keep flowing. That may be one reason in the US in general we are approaching 70 million US men who aren't officially participating in the economic system (not "employed" officially or paying income taxes). And that decline corresponds in time with growing dissillusionment in government and voting. That disengagement doesn't have to happen to Helium, but I would guess the way HIPs-51 thru 53 were handled--causing recent hotspot purchasers or those who had long delayed orders to be stuck with IOT in a way that won't R0I them is going to cost Helium most of those people, longterm. (edited)
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HeliumQuest
I have no problem giving a degree of a weighted vote to the biggest investors--businesses wouldn't exist without allowing people to protect and direct their investment. But businesses--especially decentralized ones--depend on the continued engagement of the "little people". The little people are investors too. And that's where the current structure fails abysmally. Why should a new investor buy/install a hotspot if they feel they have no effective say in the system? If they've been told it's "The People's Network", but they find out it's really the "Whale's Network"? Now certain people will say, "You want the most experienced/knowledgeable folks directing things--it makes sense to give them more voting power." But this can lead to a seriously flawed approach... (edited)
You just spoken my mind. Thanks
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waveform
Something I wrote in response another comment about how the current voting system is terrible and now expanded. How could the vote counted? Current: By HNT in wallet Always a complaint about early investors and whales controlling the vote and also large scale cheaters could control the vote with the HNT they earned. HIP60: By number of hotspots owned/online? (Assume denylist cant vote) That would mean Emrit, iHub and some big deployers (whales) control a large part of the vote who are linked to vendors - either a pro or a con depeding on your view By discord ID? There are probably more sleeping bot created accounts on discord than the number of people who voted either way for The Publish Denylist vote so the scammer bots could control the denylist vote if activated (for a price) we could see this but it would be hard to quantify. By Wallet ID? Anyone can create lots more wallets and prepopulate them with some HNT to vote using scripts so its back to being controlled by cheaters or whales with lots of HNT. By KYC (Know your customer): Providing some form of ID to be able to vote. This was pushed back on a lot by those who want to not have any form of ID associated with Cyrpto earnings. Its going to be difficult to get a voting mechanism that is agreeable to most. HIP41 has a very complicated one. I would agree that there does need to be a new voting system created but it needs to account for the new subDAOs and the veDNT function. Personally i find it hard to understand the view that a cost of $0.35 for a vote on something that could affect you by many factors of difference is not worth doing. I dont buy anything that cheap.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 07/29/2022 10:06 AM
You should read more of the back scroll. We went well beyond the scope of the options you listed. 🙂
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HeliumQuest
Even though I haven't voted ever for a HIP (for reasons I've explained elsewhere, but comes down to the too-high opportunity cost over time of present voting), I've gotten more educated with each Hip, because I love learning, but also because I have a fundamental (naive) belief in a voting system on principle. Now crush that over time, and the money and effort won't keep flowing. That may be one reason in the US in general we are approaching 70 million US men who aren't officially participating in the economic system (not "employed" officially or paying income taxes). And that decline corresponds in time with growing dissillusionment in government and voting. That disengagement doesn't have to happen to Helium, but I would guess the way HIPs-51 thru 53 were handled--causing recent hotspot purchasers or those who had long delayed orders to be stuck with IOT in a way that won't R0I them is going to cost Helium most of those people, longterm. (edited)
One of the reasons for having vote based on HNT owned rather than Hotspots owned was due to the (non) availability of hotspots when a new voting system was proposed that was better than adding an Emoji to a Vote here post. People without hotspots were complaining that they had no way of voting on a hotspot based voting system as they were waiting weeks/months. And a system based on how many hotspots was biased to the large pre-purchasers of hotspots. Starting with a voting system based on HNT allowed people to buy the ability to vote who really wanted to vote. I dont know anyone who really think its now the best voting system.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 07/29/2022 10:08 AM
I need to make some time to get back into refining the HIP and getting the updated version up. 🙂
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waveform
One of the reasons for having vote based on HNT owned rather than Hotspots owned was due to the (non) availability of hotspots when a new voting system was proposed that was better than adding an Emoji to a Vote here post. People without hotspots were complaining that they had no way of voting on a hotspot based voting system as they were waiting weeks/months. And a system based on how many hotspots was biased to the large pre-purchasers of hotspots. Starting with a voting system based on HNT allowed people to buy the ability to vote who really wanted to vote. I dont know anyone who really think its now the best voting system.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 07/29/2022 10:10 AM
Let's move away from picking apart issues with "1 hotspot, 1 vote", since that is far from what is on the table currently. 🙂 (edited)
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Let's move away from picking apart issues with "1 hotspot, 1 vote", since that is far from what is on the table currently. 🙂 (edited)
If you read that post it wasnt. I was indicating why the HNT based system vs the Hotspot one was originally chosen.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 07/29/2022 10:12 AM
Starting with a voting system based on HNT allowed people to buy the ability to vote who really wanted to vote.
Buying votes has never, and will never be a good system.
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waveform
If you read that post it wasnt. I was indicating why the HNT based system vs the Hotspot one was originally chosen.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 07/29/2022 10:13 AM
HNT voting was never approved by the community. It was approved by those whom it benefited most.
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waveform
One of the reasons for having vote based on HNT owned rather than Hotspots owned was due to the (non) availability of hotspots when a new voting system was proposed that was better than adding an Emoji to a Vote here post. People without hotspots were complaining that they had no way of voting on a hotspot based voting system as they were waiting weeks/months. And a system based on how many hotspots was biased to the large pre-purchasers of hotspots. Starting with a voting system based on HNT allowed people to buy the ability to vote who really wanted to vote. I dont know anyone who really think its now the best voting system.
Appreciate this explanation. Seems like it's time to evolve, though. I had a 3 day turnaround between order and delivery on my last hotspot.
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waveform
Something I wrote in response another comment about how the current voting system is terrible and now expanded. How could the vote counted? Current: By HNT in wallet Always a complaint about early investors and whales controlling the vote and also large scale cheaters could control the vote with the HNT they earned. HIP60: By number of hotspots owned/online? (Assume denylist cant vote) That would mean Emrit, iHub and some big deployers (whales) control a large part of the vote who are linked to vendors - either a pro or a con depeding on your view By discord ID? There are probably more sleeping bot created accounts on discord than the number of people who voted either way for The Publish Denylist vote so the scammer bots could control the denylist vote if activated (for a price) we could see this but it would be hard to quantify. By Wallet ID? Anyone can create lots more wallets and prepopulate them with some HNT to vote using scripts so its back to being controlled by cheaters or whales with lots of HNT. By KYC (Know your customer): Providing some form of ID to be able to vote. This was pushed back on a lot by those who want to not have any form of ID associated with Cyrpto earnings. Its going to be difficult to get a voting mechanism that is agreeable to most. HIP41 has a very complicated one. I would agree that there does need to be a new voting system created but it needs to account for the new subDAOs and the veDNT function. Personally i find it hard to understand the view that a cost of $0.35 for a vote on something that could affect you by many factors of difference is not worth doing. I dont buy anything that cheap.
Regarding "Personally i find it hard to understand the view that a cost of $0.35 for a vote on something that could affect you by many factors of difference is not worth doing.": The key choice here is not: 'will the result of the vote affect me'? But: 'how likely is it that my vote will change the voting result?' As long as people (a) estimate that likelihood as practically zero (b) are not completely risk-averse, (c) assign participation in the vote regardless of the outcome negligible value and (d) perceive cost as non-negligible, non-voting is completely reasonable. With the current voting system, one can in most cases get a very good estimate whether one's own vote will make a difference. (edited)
01:00
And if you believe in the future of Helium, burning HNT today for a vote is not giving up just the amount you mentioned, you are effectively giving up tens of future currency units. (edited)
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Not saying that one should think that way about voting, but just pointing out that there are ways of thinking about whether to vote or not that are imo completely understandable. (edited)
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Siegfried
Regarding "Personally i find it hard to understand the view that a cost of $0.35 for a vote on something that could affect you by many factors of difference is not worth doing.": The key choice here is not: 'will the result of the vote affect me'? But: 'how likely is it that my vote will change the voting result?' As long as people (a) estimate that likelihood as practically zero (b) are not completely risk-averse, (c) assign participation in the vote regardless of the outcome negligible value and (d) perceive cost as non-negligible, non-voting is completely reasonable. With the current voting system, one can in most cases get a very good estimate whether one's own vote will make a difference. (edited)
Points well made. But they would be the same points if we used a voting system based on hotspot ownership. So as well as changing the way people vote we need to change how and the cost of voting.
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03:36
@🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ Are you fine with all alternative HIP voting mechanisms being discussed in here? As we can push them this way if that's ok.
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waveform
Points well made. But they would be the same points if we used a voting system based on hotspot ownership. So as well as changing the way people vote we need to change how and the cost of voting.
I understand this hip channel was created for one or a few specific aspects of the governance system - I suggested elsewhere to write down all existing rules (and where helpful discuss improvements) to have something like a transparent governance/voting 'constitution' that contains all rules in one place. So everyone can read up easily and quickly in one place if need be. Now somehow (not to my complete happiness) it has been suggested to do that discussion not in a new channel, but here. How do we deal with this/move on from here? "Fuse" the topics together? Or keep them somehow separate, so that the initial hip idea can be finalized and voted upon without being held up by the bigger goal?
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Siegfried
I understand this hip channel was created for one or a few specific aspects of the governance system - I suggested elsewhere to write down all existing rules (and where helpful discuss improvements) to have something like a transparent governance/voting 'constitution' that contains all rules in one place. So everyone can read up easily and quickly in one place if need be. Now somehow (not to my complete happiness) it has been suggested to do that discussion not in a new channel, but here. How do we deal with this/move on from here? "Fuse" the topics together? Or keep them somehow separate, so that the initial hip idea can be finalized and voted upon without being held up by the bigger goal?
This is why I asked Chris if he was ok with alternative voting systems being discussed in here. It seems more sensible but polite to ask. IMHO Some of the very vocal opponents to the current system need to stop posting the same critical content over and over for months and actually write an alternative HIP if this one doesnt suit them either.
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waveform
Points well made. But they would be the same points if we used a voting system based on hotspot ownership. So as well as changing the way people vote we need to change how and the cost of voting.
HeliumQuest 07/30/2022 6:04 AM
What do you think would happen to US voting participation if you required voters to pony up money for every vote? Helium's had four votes in less than two months now. Answer me this...Why do some people seem to think $0.35 now is an acceptable charge for vote participation, but the $450-500 one spent on a hotspot isn't enough to earn you a vote? I think that's "bass ackwards" as they used to say. (edited)
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HeliumQuest
What do you think would happen to US voting participation if you required voters to pony up money for every vote? Helium's had four votes in less than two months now. Answer me this...Why do some people seem to think $0.35 now is an acceptable charge for vote participation, but the $450-500 one spent on a hotspot isn't enough to earn you a vote? I think that's "bass ackwards" as they used to say. (edited)
I have no interest in the US voting participation. I don't think $0.35 is an acceptable charge for vote participation. it should be free if possible. But everytime something is changed because of complaints someone else complains about the new system. So please come up with a HIP for a alternative solution rather than the same complaints we hear every time there is a vote about something. We could even run parallel voting systems voting on a new voting system just to see what happens - but that would require someone to create the alternative voting system first.
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Siegfried
Regarding "Personally i find it hard to understand the view that a cost of $0.35 for a vote on something that could affect you by many factors of difference is not worth doing.": The key choice here is not: 'will the result of the vote affect me'? But: 'how likely is it that my vote will change the voting result?' As long as people (a) estimate that likelihood as practically zero (b) are not completely risk-averse, (c) assign participation in the vote regardless of the outcome negligible value and (d) perceive cost as non-negligible, non-voting is completely reasonable. With the current voting system, one can in most cases get a very good estimate whether one's own vote will make a difference. (edited)
@QQQ Look at this regarding your question in the other channel, and the directly following post.
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Vote results should be hidden until the end
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02:53
Maybe this could fix the problem
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/01/2022 3:00 AM
That's an easy change to hide it from the vote site, impossible to hide it from the blockchain
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03:00
But the same thing was done to hide exact locations on explorer in a similar fashion
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QQQ
Vote results should be hidden until the end
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/01/2022 3:19 AM
Thats a good idea to rpevent bias
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Do we need a HIP to make it happen?
03:26
Even if someone makes a website that displays the votes real time, most people won't look there
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BFGNeil - Trackpac.io 08/01/2022 3:29 AM
tricky, the vote site itself wasn't in a hip so i dont see why it would need a hip, but at the same time it would be good to get some consensus (edited)
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I'd also tend to expect that making voting results only after voting period is over should increase participation - but I would wait for it until we have significantly reduced voting costs. As I said before, if you expect HNT to >100x in the coming years, voting is not just 0.35 cents foregone today, but >35 USD forgone in the future. At least there are people who think this way (I definitely am one of them). So at the moment, I can save that cost when I see that the voting result is very likely to be what I want it to be. (edited)
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Wouldn’t it be better to have a vote on which type of voting system should be used? It could be multiple choice from a selection of systems ( e.g. https://www.fairvote.org/types_of_voting_systems ).
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c_s_t
Wouldn’t it be better to have a vote on which type of voting system should be used? It could be multiple choice from a selection of systems ( e.g. https://www.fairvote.org/types_of_voting_systems ).
If we did, the discussion would shift to what options should be offered in a multiple choice vote (including the exact wordings of choice options), or else the person(s) writing them could exert enormous influence. So not sure if that helps much with regard to decrease needed amount of discussion. (edited)
04:33
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 @BFGNeil - Trackpac.io @QQQ So I propose we should significantly decrease voting cost before switching to a "voting result will only be shown after voting period is over" system (or at the same time). (edited)
04:37
I propose voting should be free or cost the least amount that can be technically implemented without implementing a mechanism that pays people to vote or refunds their voting cost. So I propose 1 vote should cost 1 DC, unless competent devs attest that it is technically not viable to do so. (edited)
04:42
Correct me if I am wrong: As I have understood, the current 35.000 DC for one vote are a result from a vote being an ordinary transaction on the Helium blockchain, and the transaction fee is 35.000 DC. So to make voting cheaper, we cannot change just a var to a lower value (unless, we want to lower transaction fees in general, which I guess we don't want to), but needed to implement voting somehow differently. I am not a dev, so I can't be more specific. (edited)
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Siegfried
Correct me if I am wrong: As I have understood, the current 35.000 DC for one vote are a result from a vote being an ordinary transaction on the Helium blockchain, and the transaction fee is 35.000 DC. So to make voting cheaper, we cannot change just a var to a lower value (unless, we want to lower transaction fees in general, which I guess we don't want to), but needed to implement voting somehow differently. I am not a dev, so I can't be more specific. (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/01/2022 5:09 AM
Yep. But tbh I think, a lot of people are using the transaction fees as a pretense to not vote. I totally agree with the current sentiment, but using DC cost as an argument is silly frivolous. (edited)
05:09
But Subdaos cover this with veHNT veDNT* (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Yep. But tbh I think, a lot of people are using the transaction fees as a pretense to not vote. I totally agree with the current sentiment, but using DC cost as an argument is silly frivolous. (edited)
Do I need to remind a mod of this discord not to use pejorative language? "silly" is a word that is not helpful in any meaningful and constructive discussion.
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Siegfried
Do I need to remind a mod of this discord not to use pejorative language? "silly" is a word that is not helpful in any meaningful and constructive discussion.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/01/2022 5:50 AM
Pardon me, fixed 👍 (edited)
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Pardon me, fixed 👍 (edited)
"frivolous", seriously?
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Siegfried
"frivolous", seriously?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/01/2022 5:51 AM
Okay at this point I'm not really sure what to do (edited)
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You could explain what you mean.
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Siegfried
You could explain what you mean.
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/01/2022 5:52 AM
I did, i don't think that the transactions fees are a reason why people don't vote
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That is exactly the reason why I didn't vote in many votes - in combination with "the result will be what I want it to be anyway". Why should I waste money if it the result goes my way anyway?
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The difference being that many people who use the argument said the vote didn't go their way.
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Of course there are many people who don't vote for other reasons. Not being aware of there being a vote. Having no opinion. Being indifferent. HNT stuck on exchanges. Being convinced, that there vote won't change the result.
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I think the dc cost of a vote will at most be an excuse for not voting.
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groot
The difference being that many people who use the argument said the vote didn't go their way.
Yes, the key reasoning is "I fully expect my vote won't change the result".
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Siegfried
That is exactly the reason why I didn't vote in many votes - in combination with "the result will be what I want it to be anyway". Why should I waste money if it the result goes my way anyway?
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/01/2022 5:56 AM
Okay, so just so that I understand. You didn't vote because of 35.000 DC which are around $0.35. Is this correct? (edited)
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Siegfried
Yes, the key reasoning is "I fully expect my vote won't change the result".
How does a low DC cost change that?
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Okay, so just so that I understand. You didn't vote because of 35.000 DC which are around $0.35. Is this correct? (edited)
one less 0, $0.35
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groot
one less 0, $0.35
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/01/2022 5:57 AM
Thanks groot
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Okay, so just so that I understand. You didn't vote because of 35.000 DC which are around $0.35. Is this correct? (edited)
Backscroll a bit, I explained the reasoning more than once. (edited)
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Siegfried
Backscroll a bit, I explained the reasoning more than once. (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/01/2022 5:57 AM
You asked me for my opinion, so at least explain it to me
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@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 This is my explanation, no need to repeat it: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/971348002595815454/1002847445778174003 (edited)
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Following that logic no matter what we do people will not vote, as according to that logic we only change one of 4 preconditions where the remaining 3 remain just as much as an obstacle.
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groot
How does a low DC cost change that?
It changes the equation from "probably makes no difference, won't waste money on that" to "probably makes no difference, but costs me as good as nothing, so I can just do it"
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groot
Following that logic no matter what we do people will not vote, as according to that logic we only change one of 4 preconditions where the remaining 3 remain just as much as an obstacle.
You'll never get 100% of people to vote, no matter what you do. By significantly reducing voting costs, you will increase the percentage of people who vote (whether it will be minuscule or significantly is unknown). People will differ in their estimated likelihood of "my vote will make a difference" (mind that they can overestimate subjectively the true likelihood), their risk-aversiveness (how much they want to be sure to avoid a situation in which they did not vote, but finding out afterwards that their vote would have been decisive), valuing a high-participation rate in a vote to which they want to contribute etc. This results in a broad distribution of probabilities to vote, and there are people for which a change in perceived cost of voting will push them over the threshold in one direction or the other. (edited)
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Siegfried
@Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 This is my explanation, no need to repeat it: https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/971348002595815454/1002847445778174003 (edited)
Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪 08/01/2022 6:15 AM
Okay
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Peso die Schildkröte 🇩🇪
Okay, so just so that I understand. You didn't vote because of 35.000 DC which are around $0.35. Is this correct? (edited)
HeliumQuest 08/01/2022 8:54 AM
No, as he said, it's 0.35 that could become $35. We've had 4 votes in less than two months. I'm not a whale. I don't want to be frittering away what I hope will become $140 to cast a vote that doesn't appear to matter.
08:56
As far as I'm concerned, having purchased a hotspot and having it on-line is the only cost that should be incurred to merit a vote.
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HeliumQuest
No, as he said, it's 0.35 that could become $35. We've had 4 votes in less than two months. I'm not a whale. I don't want to be frittering away what I hope will become $140 to cast a vote that doesn't appear to matter.
This doesn't make sense to me. If you really thought that the value was going to change like that, why wouldn't you immediately try to find some HNT to replace that which you had burned for the transaction?
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jerm
This doesn't make sense to me. If you really thought that the value was going to change like that, why wouldn't you immediately try to find some HNT to replace that which you had burned for the transaction?
Well given this https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/892226716737634345/1003715160294301777 and the subsequent message there’s even less reason to waste HNT on voting!
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waveform
@🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ Are you fine with all alternative HIP voting mechanisms being discussed in here? As we can push them this way if that's ok.
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 08/01/2022 12:22 PM
works for me, original intent was never a narrowly defined mechanism, just to initiate a conversation around something closer to a parity weighted system
12:27
if the only way you could obtain HNT was by direct participation in network utility (performing work...so basically PoW), then I wouldn't really have a huge deal w/ how current system works. It's just that you can buy and sell on the open market which inherently means you can use outside influence to drown out "domestic" actors who are actually performing the work. ...which is ultimately why this might be rendered moot by the DAO HIPs -- since they all (based on my current understanding) issue DAO-specific tokens which can only be obtained by participating in mining. So maybe if the votes happen locally relative to each subDAO in the way that they're currently operated (so voting with subtokens, not with 'root' HNT), that resolves that issue.
12:28
AFAIK subnets (e.g. $MOBILE/$IOT) are "one way", meaning you can swap [sub]HNT for HNT, but not the other way around. (edited)
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
if the only way you could obtain HNT was by direct participation in network utility (performing work...so basically PoW), then I wouldn't really have a huge deal w/ how current system works. It's just that you can buy and sell on the open market which inherently means you can use outside influence to drown out "domestic" actors who are actually performing the work. ...which is ultimately why this might be rendered moot by the DAO HIPs -- since they all (based on my current understanding) issue DAO-specific tokens which can only be obtained by participating in mining. So maybe if the votes happen locally relative to each subDAO in the way that they're currently operated (so voting with subtokens, not with 'root' HNT), that resolves that issue.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/01/2022 1:14 PM
The DNTs will have the same issue with being able to purchase.
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jerm
This doesn't make sense to me. If you really thought that the value was going to change like that, why wouldn't you immediately try to find some HNT to replace that which you had burned for the transaction?
Well we do know that any poll tax of any kind for IRL-voting is indeed a hurdle for some folks. While I think that complaining about 35 cents is indeed silly and frivolous, thinking about what that HNT will be in March of 2026 does start to open my eyes; since I am betting on $1000 then, I guess a vote today is costing me $35 in the end. So it seems a valid argument to not vote on things that feel likely to go the way you want them to go. So making the vote cost 1 DC doesn't completely eliminate the argument against voting. I could go with 0 DC to vote, 100,000 DC to change your vote. (edited)
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jerm
This doesn't make sense to me. If you really thought that the value was going to change like that, why wouldn't you immediately try to find some HNT to replace that which you had burned for the transaction?
Well maybe one has already "found" all the HNT that can be "found"? Or in other words: maybe one has already maxed out the budget that one is willing/able to invest in HNT?
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Siegfried
Well maybe one has already "found" all the HNT that can be "found"? Or in other words: maybe one has already maxed out the budget that one is willing/able to invest in HNT?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/01/2022 2:55 PM
If you are mining HNT and $.35 is what breaks the bank, there is a much larger issue going on. 😉
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you are mining HNT and $.35 is what breaks the bank, there is a much larger issue going on. 😉
🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡ 08/01/2022 2:59 PM
see @KeithR reply right above yours 🙂
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🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
see @KeithR reply right above yours 🙂
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/01/2022 2:59 PM
Yes, already read that
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
If you are mining HNT and $.35 is what breaks the bank, there is a much larger issue going on. 😉
I kind of agree with ElonTusk here as well. 35,000 DC shouldn't be an issue. In fact, if you are dying on this hill because of the price of HNT in March of 2026, you could simply buy a few dollars worth of DC with your constantly devaluing fiat. In that way the $3.50 USD you spend today for DC would actually be worth $3.05 in March of 2026; so you are almost foolish not to spend the fiat today; it is going to be worth less tomorrow if you don't.
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16:03
Then each time you vote, you will be spending devalued fiat rather than presumably appreciating tokens.
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KeithR
I kind of agree with ElonTusk here as well. 35,000 DC shouldn't be an issue. In fact, if you are dying on this hill because of the price of HNT in March of 2026, you could simply buy a few dollars worth of DC with your constantly devaluing fiat. In that way the $3.50 USD you spend today for DC would actually be worth $3.05 in March of 2026; so you are almost foolish not to spend the fiat today; it is going to be worth less tomorrow if you don't.
Wrt 'dying on that hill': Really hadn't planned on discussing that issue that extensive, but don't like flawed reasoning being out here. Are you interested in finding out why I think this is flawed? (edited)
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The current cost isn’t really the issue. Any cost will disenfranchise some users.
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Siegfried
Wrt 'dying on that hill': Really hadn't planned on discussing that issue that extensive, but don't like flawed reasoning being out here. Are you interested in finding out why I think this is flawed? (edited)
By all means; I think this is an issue worthy of discussing. As a huge fan of democracy, I completely agree that any poll tax is inherently a hurdle to voting. Since this scenario entails the burden of registering your vote on the blockchain, someone needs to be paid for that work. So 35 cents is a pretty reasonable deal; especially given that it has the inherent benefit of juicing the economy of HNT (as small as the amount is, it does add up if lots of us vote). So we have two choices of how to pay for the vote; 1) spend HNT from our wallet which we either a) mined or b) purchased with fiat OR 2) spend DC from our wallet, which we either a) converted from HNT we mined or b) purchased with fiat. As @c_s_t just typed in front of me, while 35 cents is not really that much, decreasing the value does not eliminate the hurdle until that price is 0 cents. So how do we balance the interests here (unlike most scenarios, all of the interests are reasonable in this case)? Forcing the validators to work for free seems unfair. Do enough people change their vote to pay for all of the free votes (the 0 DCs for your vote - 100,000 DCs to change your vote scenario)? (edited)
02:45
I know my perspective is a bit biased. I have cashed out enough HNT to have paid for all of my hotspots. So every HNT earned is effectively "free" to me. So whatever the value of the token is, it is already an infinite percentage increase in value over cost. So in March of 2026 (my HODL plan), the token's value will also be an infinite percentage increase over cost. So my vote is still essentially "free" to me; today and tomorrow.
02:50
We are getting a bit off topic for this HIP, so if you can try to bring it around to the goal of this channel when you give your response. 🙂 The reason I have put so much time and thought into this HIP is that I believe that whatever our role in building this project, we should all have a commensurate contribution to the voting outcomes. The current model is tilted to the HNT-rich. I would like to make everyone's voting power as equitable as we can. With the added feature of rewarding those that put in more effort, are more successful, contribute more, better planning, better installs, etc. should have more voting power than their cohorts in each entity that are not as engaged, do not contribute much, have crappy installs, etc. Hence the weighted entity idea. (edited)
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I thought I was done. But as I was heading off to sleep... How about this? On some day each year (US Election Day for a starting offer), we tax every hotspot that earns any rewards 42,069 DC (whatever is needed to ensure that however many votes that are made during the year are paid for to the blockchain). We then grant everyone the ability to vote for free and change their vote for free as well. We all contribute to eliminating the hurdle for everyone else. (edited)
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KeithR
I thought I was done. But as I was heading off to sleep... How about this? On some day each year (US Election Day for a starting offer), we tax every hotspot that earns any rewards 42,069 DC (whatever is needed to ensure that however many votes that are made during the year are paid for to the blockchain). We then grant everyone the ability to vote for free and change their vote for free as well. We all contribute to eliminating the hurdle for everyone else. (edited)
HeliumQuest 08/02/2022 4:32 AM
Again, why isn the hundreds spent on the initial purchase of a hotspot enough? Or the time and effort, electricity to operate, etc.? What about the person who buys the hotspot right before the DC tax, has made no R0I, then gets hit with this hidden fee? No hidden fees, no sudden subscription fees. People hate those.
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KeithR
I kind of agree with ElonTusk here as well. 35,000 DC shouldn't be an issue. In fact, if you are dying on this hill because of the price of HNT in March of 2026, you could simply buy a few dollars worth of DC with your constantly devaluing fiat. In that way the $3.50 USD you spend today for DC would actually be worth $3.05 in March of 2026; so you are almost foolish not to spend the fiat today; it is going to be worth less tomorrow if you don't.
HeliumQuest 08/02/2022 4:36 AM
Buying DC makes more sense than spending earned HNT. So how easy is that to do? Is there a minimum order or a transaction fee like many exchanges have? Can you really buy $0.35 of DC or at the end of things are you paying a $1.99 transaction fee plus a $10 minimum purchase?
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HeliumQuest
Buying DC makes more sense than spending earned HNT. So how easy is that to do? Is there a minimum order or a transaction fee like many exchanges have? Can you really buy $0.35 of DC or at the end of things are you paying a $1.99 transaction fee plus a $10 minimum purchase?
The $0.35 IS the minimum transaction fee, voting costs a fraction of a cent
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waveform
The $0.35 IS the minimum transaction fee, voting costs a fraction of a cent
HeliumQuest 08/02/2022 4:39 AM
I'm talking about the cost of buying the DC, not the cost of voting. For instance, many exchanges and stock brokers take a fee for your purchase of crypto/stock.
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KeithR
I kind of agree with ElonTusk here as well. 35,000 DC shouldn't be an issue. In fact, if you are dying on this hill because of the price of HNT in March of 2026, you could simply buy a few dollars worth of DC with your constantly devaluing fiat. In that way the $3.50 USD you spend today for DC would actually be worth $3.05 in March of 2026; so you are almost foolish not to spend the fiat today; it is going to be worth less tomorrow if you don't.
That’s speciulation
16:30
Why are you guys stuck on dc spent for voting. That is not the issue. I personally believe if people felt there vote made a difference the 35000 dc would not be an obstacle. It’s the weight distribution of votes. The current voting system disincentivizes both sides from voting especially after big wallets vote.
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16:34
There is reason only 3500 wallets vote!
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yep, apathy
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Keenan
yep, apathy
That may be a part of it but I would argue a small part. There is an inherent vested interest for hs owners. When the vote is skewed so much it affects the effective participation of the vote for, or against any HIP. All imo of course
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Adogg
That may be a part of it but I would argue a small part. There is an inherent vested interest for hs owners. When the vote is skewed so much it affects the effective participation of the vote for, or against any HIP. All imo of course
it was the same when straw polls were the voting method. extremely tiny turn out. most people just want to plug in and not think about it anymore lol (edited)
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Keenan
it was the same when straw polls were the voting method. extremely tiny turn out. most people just want to plug in and not think about it anymore lol (edited)
Well to just say people have no interest is a stretch. These hips have directly affected their earnings I find it hard to believe that is the case.
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Keenan
it was the same when straw polls were the voting method. extremely tiny turn out. most people just want to plug in and not think about it anymore lol (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/02/2022 5:28 PM
Not really surprising since that's way the whole system was marketed.
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Adogg
Well to just say people have no interest is a stretch. These hips have directly affected their earnings I find it hard to believe that is the case.
sad but true. been here almost 3 years. many people just dont seem to have an interest
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Keenan
sad but true. been here almost 3 years. many people just dont seem to have an interest
Maybe for the first 2 1/2 years but there have been major changes in last few months with a multiple hips that changed the network completely. I just don’t see it. I don’t vote and I am obsessed with the network. I have voted in the past but it is pointless for me to do it., not because I disagree with the winning vote I could agree but it is not even worth 35000 dc. 😁
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Adogg
Maybe for the first 2 1/2 years but there have been major changes in last few months with a multiple hips that changed the network completely. I just don’t see it. I don’t vote and I am obsessed with the network. I have voted in the past but it is pointless for me to do it., not because I disagree with the winning vote I could agree but it is not even worth 35000 dc. 😁
and thats fair. thats your right to not vote. nothing wrong with that.
17:38
id love to see more turnout and voter interest, but doesnt seem to be happening.
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Keenan
and thats fair. thats your right to not vote. nothing wrong with that.
It doesn’t help either way. If I felt I made a difference I would
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well thats your feeling, and thats fine.
17:39
hopefully we can get voting numbers up in the future.
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Unfortunately the feeling of lots of people even many regulars on here. I agree we have to figure something out about the weights of votes to get to that point something reasonable for everyone. That’s the only way imo
17:41
I wonder what the median wallet amount is
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as flawed as i feel hip 60 is, at least its a start. someone took the time to try and make something better, which i can appreciate
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Keenan
as flawed as i feel hip 60 is, at least its a start. someone took the time to try and make something better, which i can appreciate
For sure
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i dont know what the perfect voting solution is. i actually dont think there is one, but looking forward to more proposals.
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I appreciate it too. They are quacking over the 35000 dc tho. That’s the smallest part of the issue.
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Adogg
I appreciate it too. They are quacking over the 35000 dc tho. That’s the smallest part of the issue.
yeah i can agree with that
17:43
its a non issue in my eyes
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Keenan
i dont know what the perfect voting solution is. i actually dont think there is one, but looking forward to more proposals.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/02/2022 5:43 PM
KYC, but I don't ever seen that happening. 😉
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Keenan
i dont know what the perfect voting solution is. i actually dont think there is one, but looking forward to more proposals.
Well if the goal is for more people to vote the weight system has to be overhauled
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Adogg
Well if the goal is for more people to vote the weight system has to be overhauled
i think thats part of it sure
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I understand why there is weight but it’s skewed I just had an epiphany maybe the weight should be allocated by groups ie. Validators hs Hnt holders and whatever other group who would have a vote or interest. I don’t know what other groups there would be but I am sure there are a couple more. Weight the groups appropriately.
17:50
It just came to me. Lol you might think it’s ridiculous. 😂 @ Keenan sorry didn’t reply on accident so tagged you. (edited)
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Adogg
I understand why there is weight but it’s skewed I just had an epiphany maybe the weight should be allocated by groups ie. Validators hs Hnt holders and whatever other group who would have a vote or interest. I don’t know what other groups there would be but I am sure there are a couple more. Weight the groups appropriately.
lol. thats sort of what this hip says. though i know its changed many times and i havent kept up to date on it
17:52
i personally agree with the hnt weighting, but hey, thats just me. lol. unpopular opinion in this channel. i know i know. (edited)
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Keenan
i personally agree with the hnt weighting, but hey, thats just me. lol. unpopular opinion in this channel. i know i know. (edited)
Well that puts a lot of people that have interest in this project that weren’t in early at a disadvantage. Unless they buy Hnt of which I am not a fan of for voting. I have a stack of Hnt on my ledger and other wallets that I didn’t mine I could move to my wallet but I don’t.
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Carl-bot BOT 08/02/2022 5:57 PM
No discussions on buying or selling HNT please!
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all good
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I was trying to word around it lol
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i get your point.
17:58
i dont like that part either
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Keenan
i dont like that part either
Listen I appreciate the constructive conversation. I would love to have another one soon, maybe about something else. 😁
18:00
its nice to discuss things without condescending remarks and emoji trolling. looks like we picked a good time in here. haha
18:00
i appreciate it as well.
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Exactly
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this is how we get things done and move forward.
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I just want to learn more without all of that. I agree
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Adogg
I just want to learn more without all of that. I agree
side note, are you able to make it to helium house in new york?
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Keenan
side note, are you able to make it to helium house in new york?
Not this time sister is getting married in Hawaii maybe next time.
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Adogg
Not this time sister is getting married in Hawaii maybe next time.
darn! but thats a pretty awesome excuse lol
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Keenan
darn! but thats a pretty awesome excuse lol
Lmao ya sorry would rather be there.
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Adogg
Lmao ya sorry would rather be there.
.....
18:03
can i come
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Keenan
can i come
Haha I just pictured me bringing a guy I’ve never met to my sisters wedding and her reaction. Lol she’s kind of a bi$&h lol. Just a funny 💭
18:04
He’s just here for the luau lol
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lmao. worth a shot
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Keenan
lmao. worth a shot
Lol I like you
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ive never been to hawaii. but its on the list!
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Keenan
ive never been to hawaii. but its on the list!
Omg I’ve been only once before but I want to live there it’s that awesome
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Adogg
Omg I’ve been only once before but I want to live there it’s that awesome
i can only imagine
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Maybe I can kick it on huevos’couch lol. I@like the nature part of it. I try to stay away from tourist areas.
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oh yeah agreed!
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Adogg
It just came to me. Lol you might think it’s ridiculous. 😂 @ Keenan sorry didn’t reply on accident so tagged you. (edited)
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/02/2022 6:42 PM
Not ridiculous at all. That's kind of what's being working on right now. 🙂
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Yeah I realized that.
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Adogg
Not this time sister is getting married in Hawaii maybe next time.
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/02/2022 6:44 PM
Funny.. Hawaii is the same reason I'm missing it. 😄
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
Funny.. Hawaii is the same reason I'm missing it. 😄
Aww snap
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Keenan
ive never been to hawaii. but its on the list!
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/02/2022 6:45 PM
Big Island, Kona. You won't regret it. 🏝
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They need to have it on west coast next time 😀. I will keep that in mind. Thx
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EdB-charlietango 08/03/2022 4:14 PM
I would love to discuss this topic in person and model out a system (causal loop diagram) at Helium House.
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Adogg
I understand why there is weight but it’s skewed I just had an epiphany maybe the weight should be allocated by groups ie. Validators hs Hnt holders and whatever other group who would have a vote or interest. I don’t know what other groups there would be but I am sure there are a couple more. Weight the groups appropriately.
I would say anyone who is staking shouldn't get to vote with the staked HNT. Miners don't get votes based on having a miner and validators don't get votes based on having a validator. Why should stakers get a vote from staking?
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Floekun
I would say anyone who is staking shouldn't get to vote with the staked HNT. Miners don't get votes based on having a miner and validators don't get votes based on having a validator. Why should stakers get a vote from staking?
Well it is another form of commitment to the project as long as that commitment has a minimum time frame. Weigh that accordingly within the scope overall group score
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I unplugged for a few days of vacation...What HIP vote did I miss?
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HeliumQuest
I unplugged for a few days of vacation...What HIP vote did I miss?
Repeal redenomination. Pro tip: Helium wallet app, tap vote butzon, choose 'closed votes'. You can see all of the past votes there.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/06/2022 3:56 PM
Only active hotspots count.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/06/2022 3:56 PM
Denylisted hotspots don't get a vote.
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HeliumQuest 08/06/2022 5:26 PM
What you're proposing is really no different than what we already have. Those who've been on-line longer already have more HNT, which is what the current system is about. What you propose is like giving one vote to a person for each voting year they've been alive (1 for the 18 year-old, 82 for the 100). That's not a system that encourages newbies to engage--it actively discourages them from doing so. I'm with you in that those with more invested in the system should have a higher weight--and those who've sunk their early bird profits back into building out a fleet of hotspots naturally will have more votes under a one hotspot one vote regime.
17:27
One hotspot one vote actually encourages folks to bring more hotspots on-line if they want more sway.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/06/2022 6:15 PM
my argument here is that newbies shouldn't really have equal say
No.
18:15
And again... this is not "1 miner, 1 vote"
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/06/2022 6:23 PM
The HIP is outdated. This has been mentioned many many times. 🙂
18:24
There is a large update in the works. Please wait 🙂 (edited)
Angry Pickle Bear pinned a message to this channel. 08/06/2022 6:39 PM
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Original message was deleted or could not be loaded.
You still come with same problem. Hs owner for year with ten and one with 10 for six months hs online for year has more Hnt. It’s essentially the same thing with couple exceptions.
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Adogg
I understand why there is weight but it’s skewed I just had an epiphany maybe the weight should be allocated by groups ie. Validators hs Hnt holders and whatever other group who would have a vote or interest. I don’t know what other groups there would be but I am sure there are a couple more. Weight the groups appropriately.
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ElonTusk | 5Gchipped
my argument here is that newbies shouldn't really have equal say
No.
Why not actually? People with low IQ have the same 1 vote as people with high IQ in real world...1 miner 1 vote...
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Jezus
Why not actually? People with low IQ have the same 1 vote as people with high IQ in real world...1 miner 1 vote...
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 08/30/2022 11:54 PM
You're misreading what I said.
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EdB-charlietango 08/31/2022 7:20 AM
I would like to see a decay rate of voting power based on the inactivity of a wallet participating in governance.
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https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/1014268264018354247/1019707169861541958 @Keenan Moving my answer to the correct channel: No, it's not voter apathy - that may be true for some, but not for all. I am a political scientist - trust me, there is a whole subdiscipline on the topic of voting behaviour and turnout (meaning: people participating in voting or not). It is definitely more complex (and influenced by a lot of variables) (edited)
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13:42
Let me reiterate a few main thoughts on the topic, @Keenan https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/971348002595815454/1003651262388117664
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Siegfried
https://discord.com/channels/404106811252408320/1014268264018354247/1019707169861541958 @Keenan Moving my answer to the correct channel: No, it's not voter apathy - that may be true for some, but not for all. I am a political scientist - trust me, there is a whole subdiscipline on the topic of voting behaviour and turnout (meaning: people participating in voting or not). It is definitely more complex (and influenced by a lot of variables) (edited)
what is your suggestion?
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I came here from a discussion on voting fee reduction to as close to zero as possible - once we move to Solana and stick to the principle to set the cost of voting to the cost of a blockchain transaction (meaning: solana blockchain tx fee), that problem can be viewed as solved.
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i personally believe voting cost will have little to no effect (edited)
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But in general, I'd prefer some kind of general overhaul of the voting system. That doesn't mean changing everything, but we should have a document that contains all main procedures/rules on the voting system in one place (some kind of Helium "voting constitution" or "governance constitution"), especially some that are implicit atm, and find a few more rules for things that seem to be handled arbitrarily at the moment. At the moment, people could misunderstand the way Hip voting is handled as "you need to be in the right place and know the right people to get your HIP voted on". E.g., we have some people waiting for months to get their hips voted on - others publish the hip and publish the start date of the voting just along with it. (edited)
13:58
I can live with that - in general the fast track hips are the more important and better written-from-the-start-ones, but if we could make that explicit somehow, it would improve trust and mood in the community.
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Keenan
i personally believe voting cost will have little to no effect (edited)
You may be right, but in the end it is an empirical question. It will not have no effect, because with the current voting costs (I also explained my reasoning on that at length above) I don't vote, as long as I am quite sure that the outcome will be the one I prefer anyway - and with practically zero cost after a move to Solana, I'll vote more often just to signal participation. How many others do behave like that? I don't know. (edited)
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@Keenan I'll add another possibility to increase voting turnout: publish the results only after the vote has ended, that actually may be (combined with zero-voting cost) the most effective way to increase turnout amongtst people who care about the outcome
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If you vote you get a vednt drop of x for the particular subdao. The subdaos would obviously have to delegate how much vednt. Voting shows interest in the project as well as staking I would say. Just a thought. Or a vednt multiplier. For the next vote and so on. (edited)
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Hi - It looks like this HIP is stale and should be closed. It also proposes a new voting mechanism that is incongruent with HIP 70 and vote escrowed tokens (veHNT) as in HIP 51-53. It needs attention from the authors or we will close it at the end of the week.
08:10
closing (11/25)
08:11
@🎈hnt.ChrisV.btc⚡
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Angry Pickle Bear 11/23/2022 8:14 AM
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped , do you know if there's an update still coming to this HIP to make it fit in with the new context introduced by HIPs 51-53 + 70?
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Angry Pickle Bear
@ElonTusk | 5Gchipped , do you know if there's an update still coming to this HIP to make it fit in with the new context introduced by HIPs 51-53 + 70?
ElonTusk | 5Gchipped 11/23/2022 10:29 AM
I think it's safe to archive this. If we end up working on it again, we can look at bringing the channel back. :)
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@waveform can we archive this channel?
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valerie
@waveform can we archive this channel?
Yep
15:33
(Waveform likely in bed)
15:37
w!lock ?t c
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Doesn't seem like it worked
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Keenan (Foundation Admin) 12/06/2022 3:40 PM
w!lock ?t c
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notallowed #hip-60-entity-weighted-vote has been locked!
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